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Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:08 am
by Goalnetpositive
The video is a good first step. Communication is key, so here's my input.
-Nissan should/must expect that owners want/expect to get new batteries and upgrades. My family just gave up a car we had for over 24 years because the body rusted out so it wouldn't pass inspection, something about how its a bad idea to let exhaust fumes into the passenger compartment. With an electric car and battery, I expect to get upgrades for the car until I see the road passing by under my feet through rust holes.

-Range is a big deal. If at some point Nissan achieves a revolutionary breakthrough and gets a 150 mile battery at reasonable cost, it will make sense for me to consider it. At this point, I have to borrow/rent a car or not make a trip if there is a 120 mile round trip to be considered. I believe in the need for EVs so much I upgraded to a LEAF and it's my only car.

-For many early adopters, environmental responsibility is important. Throwaway cars because of battery capacity/range loss makes no sense.

-In this day of computers, this non-engineer assumed that forward/backward compatibility wouldn't be a problem. This idea was helped a bit by Nissan talking about recycling car batteries in the future. If you're recycling batteries, I thought that meant that would mean that was because I got a new battery, not junked the whole car. http://www.facebook.com/nissanleaf/app_10339498918" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-It is very important to me when talking about the LEAF that NISSAN completely stands by the car's ability to go so many miles between point A and B. That's what the warranty implied to me. NISSAN took a huge leap forward when coming out with new technology, and as an early adopter, I am well aware of the risks. I took the risk believing that NISSAN would stand behind the car and share the risk with me. At no point did the dealer or website communicate to me NISSAN preferred leasing. Bottom line is NISSAN stands behind the car, you have a customer for life recommending the LEAF to others. If you can keep the car from rusting out, you're selling me tires, upgrades, and new batteries for a long time.

-Reality check. With global warming, expect Arizona climate to expand to many more places, sooner than later due to worldwide indifference/inertia and denial. It depends on how foolish man chooses to be, but it is clear that many places will have many more very hot days. Nissan will be foolish and ignoring science not to take that into account.

Thanks to all the forum posters, your info gave me the confidence to buy the LEAF and understand the range well enough to use it without too much anxiety. Thanks to Chelsea for helping to move EVs forward. Thanks to Nissan for taking the plunge, and hopefully getting to the point of really understanding their customers and how to keep our confidence.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:09 am
by TonyWilliams
Volusiano wrote:It seems like Nissan has already known all along that its 80%/70% glide path in 5/10 years is a big drop off up front. So why did Nissan withhold that information from the customer at the point of purchase and let them assume incorrectly that the glide path is linear? Nissan never said anything about the glide path being non-linear with a big drop off up front until the cat was out of the bag and the premature losses in Phoenix started piling up.
They knew...it's precisely why that first capacity bar segment at the top is 15%. That's more than DOUBLE the remaining bars segments.

They just used a non-linear display to match the non-linear degradation, and like normal... didn't tell the consumer.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:12 am
by javan
Goalnetpositive wrote: Thanks to all the forum posters, your info gave me the confidence to buy the LEAF and understand the range well enough to use it without too much anxiety. Thanks to Chelsea for helping to move EVs forward. Thanks to Nissan for taking the plunge, and hopefully getting to the point of really understanding their customers and how to keep our confidence.
+1

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:15 am
by evchels
Re leasing vs purchasing, another reason Nissan probably expected more of the former is because the monthly payment is so much lower with the tax credit applied directly. Combined with the assumption that EV features and choices will change in the first few years, I know many folks who leased this time, but intend to go back to purchasing with their next EV.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:44 am
by OrientExpress
evchels wrote:Re leasing vs purchasing, another reason Nissan probably expected more of the former is because the monthly payment is so much lower with the tax credit applied directly. Combined with the assumption that EV features and choices will change in the first few years, I know many folks who leased this time, but intend to go back to purchasing with their next EV.
While the financial advantages of leasing vs. buying are certainly a consideration, Leasing is the path that most high tech early adopters tend to take simply because of familiarity with the technology advancement curve. A version 1 of any high tech product is always a compromise of schedule, cost, component supply, and manufacturing capacity. As a rule, it is not until version 3 of something that it actually meets the original marketing and design goals for the product. That version is usually the first one that the high tech early adopter considers purchasing.

The desire to own the version 1 LEAF really took us all as a surprise, and is a great testimony to the confidence that these early adopter owners placed in Nissan. And while I applaud those of you that subscribe to the notion of owning and operating a vehicle until "the wheels fall off", you must understand that you are a dwindling breed. The replacement and recycling of vehicles today averages 8~10 years or less, so today's vehicles are designed with that duty cycle in mind.

The LEAF is an excellent example of that. It is designed to be 100% recyclable, so having a useful life of 5 ~ 10 years is misleading. All of the components of the car are designed to be used over and over again in other forms. Nothing is wasted.

And in every recycled reincarnation, the resultant reborn LEAF becomes better and better.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:03 pm
by surfingslovak
Appreciate the views voiced on this thread. This is only anecdotal, but I have assisted several people with their purchase decision. As far as I recall, they all expressed a wish to own the car outright instead of leasing it. I myself have converted my lease into a purchase at the time of delivery, because I viewed the lease terms as disadvantageous. I think the wheel is now turning, and the great lease deals Nissan is presently offering really help. Several people in our community have already traded up, and swapped a vehicle they owned for a leased one. It's the easiest solution, if you can embrace the idea of leasing.Image

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:10 pm
by dhanson865
OrientExpress wrote:The replacement and recycling of vehicles today averages 8~10 years or less, so today's vehicles are designed with that duty cycle in mind.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/0 ... l-it-dies/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Three in four respondents agreed that buying a vehicle every two to three years is a thing of the past, and 78 percent now say that 10+ years (or until it dies) is the appropriate vehicle lifespan. Is that how you think?
Ah, you think it’s because of the bad economy? Over half say that a better economy would not change their habit of holding onto their vehicle for longer.

Drivers Keep Vehicles for Over 10 Years
Over 10 years 78%
8 – 10 years 15%
6 – 7 years 4%
3 – 5 years 3%

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:24 pm
by dgpcolorado
OrientExpress wrote:While the financial advantages of leasing vs. buying are certainly a consideration, Leasing is the path that most high tech early adopters tend to take simply because of familiarity with the technology advancement curve. A version 1 of any high tech product is always a compromise of schedule, cost, component supply, and manufacturing capacity. As a rule, it is not until version 3 of something that it actually meets the original marketing and design goals for the product. That version is usually the first one that the high tech early adopter considers purchasing.

The desire to own the version 1 LEAF really took us all as a surprise, and is a great testimony to the confidence that these early adopter owners placed in Nissan. And while I applaud those of you that subscribe to the notion of owning and operating a vehicle until "the wheels fall off", you must understand that you are a dwindling breed. The replacement and recycling of vehicles today averages 8~10 years or less, so today's vehicles are designed with that duty cycle in mind.
Nonsense! With proper maintenance a modern car ought to be able to go 200K miles easily. With reduced complexity and vastly fewer moving parts an EV ought to last even longer than a typical ICE car. The idea that electric cars are the equivalent of a tech gadget like an iPhone, which needs to be replaced every couple of years, is not valid.
The LEAF is an excellent example of that. It is designed to be 100% recyclable, so having a useful life of 5 ~ 10 years is misleading. All of the components of the car are designed to be used over and over again in other forms. Nothing is wasted.

And in every recycled reincarnation, the resultant reborn LEAF becomes better and better.
Even from an environmental point of view it is much better to make a device last than to use the energy needed to recycle components and manufacture a new one. Just because much of a car can be recycled doesn't mean that it should be done until it is simply beyond cost-effective repair.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:25 pm
by TEG
When he says that the indicator problem is addressed (with the 2013s) I am not sure if that means:

A: The range gauge (DTE/GOM) is more accurate at predicting miles remaining?
and/or
B: The battery health gauge is removed so people are less able to notice their dwindling battery capacity?

I think drivers want A improved, but Nissan wants B to go away.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:29 pm
by ttweed
shrink wrote: Since you cite customer safety as one of your reasons for including a battery capacity gauge, and you want to continue to improve communication with owners, will you stop withholding and tell owners exactly how much usable capacity is remaining in their battery packs if requested? Both usable kWh and % of original capacity would be very informative, so drivers can better plan and anticipate their commutes.
I have watched the video and read all the responses here. I think this issue from shrink quoted above is primary in this situation, and I have a suggestion that I don't see addressed anywhere. If transparency and customer communication regarding battery health are worthy goals, as both sides seem to agree, then Nissan should make available ASAP a means for owners to receive accurate reports of their individual car's battery capacity on a daily (or weekly) basis, through the Carwings owner's portal, and be able to monitor it over time, in order to assess the effectiveness and impact of their individual driving and charging habits (and climatic conditions).

It is obvious from the video that they have all the necessary data and have already developed the algorithms to calculate this easily from the Carwings database (for every owner who "accepts" the transmission of usage data to Nissan). They did it for the AZ cars to demonstrate the 76% "glideslope," so why not simply program a section of the Carwings site where an owner can view the same results for their car on demand, on a "percentage from new" and/or kWh basis, by clicking on a "battery capacity" button or tab? I would much rather have this information than all the useless graphs provided now showing how my driving efficiency is stacking up against other drivers in my region, or the world.

The existing annual battery health reports from the dealer are useless, and the "chunky" resolution of the 12-bar "capacity gauge" is equally inadequate to inform the owner of what is happening with their battery in anything but a "shocking" manner, when the disappearance of a bar suddenly indicates a 15% loss. Having to buy 3rd-party gauges or scan tools to determine this state of capacity is a travesty when Nissan has all the information at their fingertips, and some clever, concerted programming effort could make it available to all owners through the website in a matter of weeks. This would help resolve a lot of the uncertainty owners are experiencing who haven't yet lost capacity bars, and would provide a feedback tool to educate and inform everyone, including new owners, regarding their battery performance and degradation curve.

It would also provide a tool for owners to demonstrate to a potential buyer the relative health of a used Leaf's battery in a resale transaction, protecting both parties and supporting the value of the Leaf in the used car market. I think something like this is essential in this situation, and the sooner the better. It could not possibly cost Nissan that much to develop such a functionality, especially compared to the alternative of somehow "updating" or integrating such an infographic display into each car's firmware or gauges through a mass recall process, or any other alternate path there might be to achieve this goal that I can think of right now.

TT