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Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:34 pm
by Nubo
OrientExpress wrote:...
The desire to own the version 1 LEAF really took us all as a surprise, and is a great testimony to the confidence that these early adopter owners placed in Nissan. ...
My impression is that it may have had less to do with Nissan than with General Motors and the EV1.

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Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:20 pm
by TEG
ttweed wrote:...If transparency and customer communication regarding battery health are worthy goals, as both sides seem to agree, then Nissan should make available ASAP a means for owners to receive accurate reports of their individual car's battery capacity on a daily (or weekly) basis, through the Carwings owner's portal, and be able to monitor it over time, in order to assess the effectiveness and impact of their individual driving and charging habits (and climatic conditions)...
I see some reasons why they ~might~ resist that:

#1: They are concerned a competitor could use it to improve competing battery EV technology.
#2: They don't want customers to have too much insight into problem areas they would rather "discuss around."
#3: They are concerned that customers could have too many questions about the meaning or accuracy of the data.
#4: They are trying to "dumb things down" a bit so they don't intimidate non-technical customers.

With that said, I think there are even more reasons why many of us would like having that information available. Many of us are interested in doing what we can to keep our batteries from losing capacity, and we do things like debate heavy acceleration, high speed driving, 240v vs 120v charging, too much quick charging, charging to 100% vs 80%, storing the car at 50%, etc, etc, etc.
Perhaps Nissan has all that data too - on driving and charging habits, temperatures, and such, and could provide us more details into how those factors influence battery degradation. So far we get vague and mixed messages about what are the "best practices" for treating the battery in the best possible way. If we can't get good analysis summaries, then perhaps more raw data could be made available so the engineering types on these forums could analyze it themselves. Perhaps there could be a "make my data public" feature on carwings that would publish your battery health history, charging, and driving habits for others to compare so we can figure out what is the best way to use/charge the car...

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:30 pm
by LEAFfan
evchels wrote:4) More information on the variables impacting degradation- e.g., how much freeway driving, fast charges, etc. (I actually really like the web app idea for this.)
I'm going to repeat what I posted because I would love to hear what Mr. Palmer will say about drivers that have babied their batteries (complete opposite of his 4 variables/conditions), driven LESS than 7500 miles in LESS than one year, and STILL have lost one or two capacity bars. Why can't he just be upfront and honest and admit that the major factor for battery pack degradation is high ambient heat over time?

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:12 pm
by davewill
planet4ever wrote:
jhm614 wrote:If I understood the video correctly, the 7500 mile figure comes from the CARWINGS data from the 400 AZ customers that click "accept" when the LEAF is started.
Yes, that's the way I heard it, too. But I'm surprised no one has pointed out that this is a prime way to lie with statistics. What Andy said (in effect) was that 11% (50/450) of AZ drivers never click accept. What he implied was that the other 89% always click accept. What if I drive 15,000 miles a year, but only click accept half the time? Or my wife and I drive the car equally, and she always clicks but I never do? Bingo! We're suddenly 7500 mile drivers. (I know whereof I speak. My car's odometer has gone past 10,000, but CARWINGS says I've driven a total of 88.8 miles in the parts of two years I have had it.) In fact, if my mileage was averaged with that of a 15K mile driver ...
I would note that spotty reporting would lower the mileage recorded, but probably doesn't have much effect on the battery health data. So that might mean that the 76% (glide path) number might actually be applicable to a higher annual mileage than 7500.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:20 pm
by surfingslovak
davewill wrote:So that might mean that the 76% (glide path) number might actually be applicable to a higher annual mileage than 7500.
That's a good point.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:28 pm
by myleaf
surfingslovak wrote:
davewill wrote:So that might mean that the 76% (glide path) number might actually be applicable to a higher annual mileage than 7500.
That's a good point.
But in light of tick tock's data, this would suggest a greater degredation wrt mileage.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:32 pm
by evchels
davewill wrote:
planet4ever wrote:
jhm614 wrote:If I understood the video correctly, the 7500 mile figure comes from the CARWINGS data from the 400 AZ customers that click "accept" when the LEAF is started.
Yes, that's the way I heard it, too. But I'm surprised no one has pointed out that this is a prime way to lie with statistics. What Andy said (in effect) was that 11% (50/450) of AZ drivers never click accept. What he implied was that the other 89% always click accept. What if I drive 15,000 miles a year, but only click accept half the time? Or my wife and I drive the car equally, and she always clicks but I never do? Bingo! We're suddenly 7500 mile drivers. (I know whereof I speak. My car's odometer has gone past 10,000, but CARWINGS says I've driven a total of 88.8 miles in the parts of two years I have had it.) In fact, if my mileage was averaged with that of a 15K mile driver ...
I would note that spotty reporting would lower the mileage recorded, but probably doesn't have much effect on the battery health data. So that might mean that the 76% (glide path) number might actually be applicable to a higher annual mileage than 7500.
Good questions- I will forward the example on and add getting clarification on the Carwings data behind the 76% degradation estimate and potential impact on its accuracy to the homework request for more info @12,500/yr.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:46 pm
by FairwoodRed
I felt really good after watching the video. It made me feel quite reassured. At least until I started reviewing it for details. There was not enough meat in it, which makes me think that Nissan is started down the right path. Keep it up and give us more meat.

I found it interesting that Andy Palmer said they are gathering State Of Health via Carwings. If so, why did Nissan claim that so few Phoenix cars were affected? That just doesn’t ring true.

The Leaf should be the easiest car to keep running forever. Electric motors tend to have a much longer life than ICE’s. No transmission to replace. That just leaves replacement of the tires, shocks, brakes, drive shafts, and ball joints. OH. And the BATTERY. All of the first parts are easy for home mechanics to take care of. Some high voltage safety training and the entire pack is doable to. I will certainly be replacing my own pack if the labor fee is over $100 (almost guaranteed). I expect that I can keep my Leaf running for a few hundred thousand miles as long as the parts prices aren’t too high. We’ll see how I end up doing.

If Nissan wanted me to lease, they should have told my dealer. I tried to convert a purchase reservation to a lease, but they wanted $2000 down and $470 a month. Not at all attractive compared to my credit union financed nothing down purchase at $505, especially after the federal incentives..

One question that I had is: What does Nissan foresee happening when a used Leaf is sold regarding establishing State Of Health? Will the seller take the car to a dealer and get a percent SOH? Currently dealers say they can’t do that. What about independent shops?

It’s weird that I love my Leaf so much, but also feel so left out in the cold by Nissan. Despite warning everyone I talk to about my Leaf having no capacity warrantee, I have still managed to convince some them to buy a Leaf. Imagine how many more if a meaningful warrantee existed. Expectations could be managed so much better if Nissan could show us some graphs detailing how each of the main factors affect SOH.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:55 pm
by adric22
FairwoodRed wrote: I will certainly be replacing my own pack if the labor fee is over $100 (almost guaranteed). I expect that I can keep my Leaf running for a few hundred thousand miles as long as the parts prices aren’t too high. We’ll see how I end up doing.
I'm not sure it will be worth it to save $100. I've changed out a few Prius batteries and the real problem is getting the new battery delivered as is usually has to come by freight. You can pick it up at the dealer but you'll pay more for it and need a pickup to bring it home. Then there is disposal of the old battery to deal with. If you have to freight that back somewhere, then you are out more money. And the leaf battery is quite a bit bigger than a Prius battery, so amplify everything I just said. Oh.. and getting that battery in and out of a Leaf will not be trivial. With a Prius 1 big, strong guy can lift the battery although usually 2 people will do it. I don't know if 5 people could lift a Leaf battery or not.

Re: Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:07 pm
by FairwoodRed
adric22 wrote:
FairwoodRed wrote: I will certainly be replacing my own pack if the labor fee is over $100 (almost guaranteed). I expect that I can keep my Leaf running for a few hundred thousand miles as long as the parts prices aren’t too high. We’ll see how I end up doing.
I'm not sure it will be worth it to save $100. I've changed out a few Prius batteries and the real problem is getting the new battery delivered as is usually has to come by freight. You can pick it up at the dealer but you'll pay more for it and need a pickup to bring it home. Then there is disposal of the old battery to deal with. If you have to freight that back somewhere, then you are out more money. And the leaf battery is quite a bit bigger than a Prius battery, so amplify everything I just said. Oh.. and getting that battery in and out of a Leaf will not be trivial. With a Prius 1 big, strong guy can lift the battery although usually 2 people will do it. I don't know if 5 people could lift a Leaf battery or not.
The $100 could change as I get closer to actually needing to do it. But my local leaf tech said he can drop and split a pack in about 15 minutes, so I have trouble believing that more than one man hour should be billed. I've changed a few engines/trannies, so I prefer to use jacking systems for heavy lifting. My employer even has a lift for replacing huge lead acid telecom backup batteries that might work. I have a truck and trailer, so no trouble picking up the pack from a trucking company dock either. I'm guessing that the new pack will have a core charge, so that's what I'll probably do with the old one.

I'm a huge DIY'er and the only real setback would be if I want to do it. I don't mount my own tires cause the cost is cheap and the hassle large. But most other things I'll do.