TEG
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: LEAF advisory group

Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:25 pm

Lots of nice little changes went into the 2013s, but still waiting for the big battery "breakthrough".
Hopefully we get a 150 mile range LEAF at a similar price point within 5 years.

For the 2013, I wonder if it is possible to get the black cloth seats in with the "all options" SL package?
From the looks of things they want you to have leather if you get the top of the line audio system and 17" wheels. Maybe this is a USA only marketing thing that Nissan Japan HQ doesn't follow closely, but I do represent a small contingent that don't like being forced in to leather seating to get other options.

I hope Nissan continues to work on R&D for charge station finding built into the car. Someday it would be great if the Nav could show you which nearby charging stations were _available_, in other words it would be updated to mark which stations were already being used by someone else at the time. Also, it would be great if they had better pictures / directions to the charging stations. They could look at sites like http://www.plugshare.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, http://www.recargo.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, https://na.chargepoint.com/index.php/charge_point" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, etc. for ideas.


Also, you folks might want to inquire about high speed charging interoperability with other systems.
Will a LEAF ever charge at a Tesla Supercharger or SAE Combo-plug station? I don't know if Nissan has even considered making adapters for these. I am guessing not, but it seems worth asking just in case.

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RegGuheert
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Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: LEAF advisory group

Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:16 pm

darelldd wrote:Our first full day is done. And when I say full, I mean full. My day started at 0600, and is just now ending at 2200. The access and open discussion has been non-stop... And our Nissan hosts have been fantastic. Tomorrow promises to be even more exciting. Must sleep now!
+1 Nissan have been terrific hosts!
DaveinOlyWA wrote:Other than the hotel, we have not been afforded any wi fi. But we are able to post at will pretty much. I got verizon data roamijg $20/100 mb so not too bad. Its slow but posted about 20 pix on FB yesterday. And yesterday was non stop from 8 am till nearly 10 but today promises to be the most exciting but also the part we will be least able to talk about but just the opportunity to be part of all this has been truly wonderful
Agreed Wednesday was great! We got detailed tours of the Oppama plant where all our LEAFs were assembled and another tour of the Zama plant where our battery modules were made. We also met with Andy Palmer, Roel De Vries, Simon Spoule and Jeff Kuhlman to give our suggestions on how they can improve their LEAF messaging. I will say that I felt they were sincerely listening, so we felt heard.

We have no pictures from the battery plant, but we got lots of pictures of the manufacturing plant. I don't have Facebook, so I haven't seen Dave's pictures yet, but we all have pictures of similar things. I'll post what I got when I have a chance, but I'm generally regarded to be the world's worst photographer! :oops:

Some notes on the 2013 battery:

- The module case was modifiied to reduce weight and materials used. They claimed a 30 kg weight reduction for the LEAF battery just from that change.
- The changes to the 2013 battery module chemistry were mainly intended to reduce cost. (There has been some mention of improvements in thermal capabilities, but the battery experts did not confirm that. They indicated there may be small changes in battery characteristics, but weight and cost were the two major changes.)
- The 2013 battery modules are compatible with the 2012/2012 LEAFs.

Some notes on the drivetrain:
- The redesign of the motor was intended to improve efficiency. They said efficiency is improved in the speed range of 40 MPH to 60 MPH.
- There is also some efficiency improvement which comes from integrating the motor and inverter together and thereby reducing wiring losses. It is clear that the main reason to integrate the electronics is to achieve optimum manufacturing efficiency. With this change, the 2013 LEAF assembly is more similar to the assembly of other Nissan cars than was the 2011/2012.
- I asked about the reduced torque, but I didn't get a satisfactory answer. However, they did confirm that with the lower weight of the car, 0-60 times are improved by about 3%. (I will point out that the torque on the specification sheet is peak torque only. It is possible that torque over a range of speeds could be higher on average, even with a lower peak.). I will try to learn more about the drivetrain today, I'd possible.
- They are continuing to work on the GOM, even after the 2013 release. We should see something in the future.
TEG wrote:Lots of nice little changes went into the 2013s, but still waiting for the big battery "breakthrough".
Hopefully we get a 150 mile range LEAF at a similar price point within 5 years.
Yeah, the battery changes for 2013 are incremental improvements. The current LEAF battery technology will likely continue to be tweaked going forward. We may hear more in today's meetings, but, as Dave said, we likely cannot say anything about some of what we will see/hear today.
TEG wrote:For the 2013, I wonder if it is possible to get the black cloth seats in with the "all options" SL package?
From the looks of things they want you to have leather if you get the top of the line audio system and 17" wheels. Maybe this is a USA only marketing thing that Nissan Japan HQ doesn't follow closely, but I do represent a small contingent that don't like being forced in to leather seating to get other options.
Like you, I also prefer cloth to leather, but I think all of that is set in stone for 2013.
TEG wrote:I hope Nissan continues to work on R&D for charge station finding built into the car. Someday it would be great if the Nav could show you which nearby charging stations were _available_, in other words it would be updated to mark which stations were already being used by someone else at the time. Also, it would be great if they had better pictures / directions to the charging stations. They could look at sites like http://www.plugshare.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, http://www.recargo.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, https://na.chargepoint.com/index.php/charge_point" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, etc. for ideas.
We may meet people in this area today. We will give them your feedback.
TEG wrote:Also, you folks might want to inquire about high speed charging interoperability with other systems.
Will a LEAF ever charge at a Tesla Supercharger or SAE Combo-plug station? I don't know if Nissan has even considered making adapters for these. I am guessing not, but it seems worth asking just in case.
We discussed this some on Tuesday night and Nissan is clearly frustrated by the whole SAE combo plug issue. In any case I can ask if they plan to offer any interoperability options in the future.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

cwerdna
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: LEAF advisory group

Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:22 pm

^^^
Thanks for all the info. I wasn't sure if DaveinOlyWA was there by himself (I've been seeing and commenting on his FB uploads) and if not, who was with him. I figured TonyWilliams, Chelsea and others might be there too. Or, perhaps they're on a separate trip?

'19 Bolt Premier
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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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RegGuheert
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Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
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Re: LEAF advisory group

Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:59 pm

cwerdna wrote:^^^
Thanks for all the info. I wasn't sure if DaveinOlyWA was there by himself (I've been seeing and commenting on his FB uploads) and if not, who was with him. I figured TonyWilliams, Chelsea and others might be there too. Or, perhaps they're on a separate trip?
As you can see, DavinOlyWA, darelldd and me are here along with evchels. Also here are Kataphn, Don, and sullyfahs. There are also a few guys from Europe, but some do not have aliases here and I do not know the others' aliases. (I am also not sure if Don and sullyfahs are aliases for the right people. I will correct that if I got them wrong. I hope I didn't leave out anyone!) IMO, Chelsea did a great job selecting a diverse group who are not bashful about sharing our opinions with Nissan!

Tony is not here. I believe Tony and Phil are both focused on the battery degradation issue.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

Stoaty
Posts: 4490
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: LEAF advisory group

Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:18 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Some notes on the 2013 battery:

- The module case was modifiied to reduce weight and materials used. They claimed a 30 kg weight reduction for the LEAF battery just from that change.
- The changes to the 2013 battery module chemistry were mainly intended to reduce cost. (There has been some mention of improvements in thermal capabilities, but the battery experts did not confirm that. They indicated there may be small changes in battery characteristics, but weight and cost were the two major changes.)
- The 2013 battery modules are compatible with the 2012/2012 LEAFs.

Some notes on the drivetrain:
- The redesign of the motor was intended to improve efficiency. They said efficiency is improved in the speed range of 40 MPH to 60 MPH.
- There is also some efficiency improvement which comes from integrating the motor and inverter together and thereby reducing wiring losses. It is clear that the main reason to integrate the electronics is to achieve optimum manufacturing efficiency. With this change, the 2013 LEAF assembly is more similar to the assembly of other Nissan cars than was the 2011/2012.
- I asked about the reduced torque, but I didn't get a satisfactory answer. However, they did confirm that with the lower weight of the car, 0-60 times are improved by about 3%. (I will point out that the torque on the specification sheet is peak torque only. It is possible that torque over a range of speeds could be higher on average, even with a lower peak.). I will try to learn more about the drivetrain today, I'd possible.

Yeah, the battery changes for 2013 are incremental improvements. The current LEAF battery technology will likely continue to be tweaked going forward. We may hear more in today's meetings, but, as Dave said, we likely cannot say anything about some of what we will see/hear.
Great info. I assume you are under NDA for some info and they are making it clear which info can be made public and which can't?
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
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surfingslovak
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Re: LEAF advisory group

Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:57 pm

Thank you for the update! I would cross-post couple of Facebook photos from Dave, if it helped, and he didn't mind.

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Kataphn
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Re: LEAF advisory group

Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:16 pm

I figured George and Dave would give great summaries and they have. Nissan has been an exceptional host. We have had several opportunities to have free flowing round table talks with execs in addition to the expected presentations. We each come from our own various perspectives as consumers, advocates, tech folks or some combination thereof. Nissan is listening attentively to all views. Thanks to Chelsea very much for her coordination efforts and her ability to succinctly summarize salient points.
Delivered: May 3, 2011
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: LEAF advisory group

Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:28 pm

Just a quick note on QC . Nissan has a very capable and extensively test QC unit. In Japan, they are all free (considering the bus ride from the airport was $35, anything free around here is a big deal) and whether their reliability.is a reflection of the respect inherent in the Japanese culture or simply superior engineering, it definitely works well here. I suspect its a bit of both and a key driving force behind Nissan taking the initiative to install at their US dealerships. I think it will come down to 3rd party providers stepping up to Nissan's level or going home
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 7059.6 mi, 95.35% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

evchels
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:50 pm

Re: LEAF advisory group

Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:30 pm

Hi all,

As others have said, it's definitely a packed trip with really no breaks during the day unless someone happens to be able to dash something off via smartphone or ipad along the way (my fault- I pressed for as much "substance" as possible on this trip, though we get a bit of optional sightseeing time tomorrow. And being geeks that we are, the plant tours have been their own form of sightseeing!) And yes, Nissan has asked for some discretion re some conversations, things we can't take pics of (mostly plant stuff), etc. But, we all have long plane rides ahead of us which should give more folks time to compose some thoughts. I will also be coordinating the written submission of the group's take-aways and input in the next couple weeks once we've had a chance to gather it all and circulate among our own group- so will post as much of that as possible (if not all of it) here as well.

I'm sorry it's not more "real time", but we will keep you all in the loop as this progresses. As with Phoenix, this is also merely a first step ("proof" can only come through ongoing action, I think), but it's been a productive one, and it's been very clear that Nissan is taking this effort and its potential incredibly seriously.

More soon, if not soon enough! :)

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OrientExpress
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A favor from LEAF advisory group

Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:36 pm

If you guys are at the Nissan Yokohama headquarters today, can you snap a picture of the QC stations that are there at the entrance to the Nissan Gallery? When I was there last month, I forgot to get a shot of them.

Thanks! Sounds like you are having a great time.
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Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
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Delivery May 23 2014
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