cwerdna
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Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledge

Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:08 am

Marktm wrote:However,
1. Missed that the L1/L2 "charger" is only 3.3KW sizing - SLOW! (I am putting an OpenEsve together as we post, which will hopefully allow me to at least max the charger out - any experience on this is appreciated).
L1 EVSE is only 1.44 kW (12 amps * 120 volts) at max. OBC on your car is 3.x kW... well, 3.8 kW from the "wall" at max. A 16 amp 240 volt L2 EVSE is enough to max out your car's OBC.
Marktm wrote: 2. Missed that there are no "free" chargers anymore - even the stores that have "free" signs have NO ONE IN THE STORE that knows what the hell your talking about.

3. Missed that the "quick chargers" are very few and far between and seem to have maintenance issues (I've had to really get on their case to get the local one fixed)
Depends on where. There are 8 free L2 J1772 EVSEs about 5 miles from home for me but yes, few free DC FCs anymore in the SF Bay Area. Consult Plugshare, the app and web site.
Marktm wrote: 4. Missed that the expected range is very optimistic when fully charged - Is it equally pessimistic before turtle mode? I will get the Leaf Spy set up with my iphone (bluetooth?)
Yes, the GOM sucks.
Marktm wrote: One was a young lady that simply said - "it doesn't go very far". Knew nothing else about the car (appeared it might have been borrowed?)
Heh.

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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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Marktm
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Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledge

Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:09 am

cwerdna:

Thanks - Since the OpenEsve is "programmable" in 2 amp increments up to 30 amps (26 continuous?), I'm guessing if I go above the 16 amps, the OBC will throttle down.

Has anyone actually measured the max amps at a measured voltage?

Great help on this forum!
2012 Leaf SL; 46,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledge

Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:56 am

Marktm wrote:cwerdna:

Thanks - Since the OpenEsve is "programmable" in 2 amp increments up to 30 amps (26 continuous?), I'm guessing if I go above the 16 amps, the OBC will throttle down.

Has anyone actually measured the max amps at a measured voltage?

Great help on this forum!

No, if you set it to 32A it will draw 32A continuous. If you set it to 32A on a 16A charger the charger will not "throttle back" it just will not daw more than 16A.

GlennD
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Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledge

Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:28 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
Marktm wrote:cwerdna:

Thanks - Since the OpenEsve is "programmable" in 2 amp increments up to 30 amps (26 continuous?), I'm guessing if I go above the 16 amps, the OBC will throttle down.

Has anyone actually measured the max amps at a measured voltage?

Great help on this forum!

No, if you set it to 32A it will draw 32A continuous. If you set it to 32A on a 16A charger the charger will not "throttle back" it just will not draw more than 16A.
On my 2012 Leaf I connected an amp coil to it and I measured the current and waveform. It was a 16A at 240V charging car. Assuming it was fed from a source greater than 16A it would throw away the excess current.

A switching supply like the car's charger has a very bad raw power factor but it was compensated to a power factor of one. At full power the current wave form was nearly a sine wave. At reduced current it resembles a triangle wave with rounded points.

One of these days I will look at my "B" ( Tesla charger ) but I assume it also has a good power factor. Since it works fine I am in no hurry.

The multi meters I have used on my OpenEVSE units use a small capacitor to drop the voltage. I have measured 10 volt amps. but only 2 Watts. It is a good thing that residential power meters only measure watts!
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Marktm
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Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledge

Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:10 pm

GlennD wrote:
On my 2012 Leaf I connected an amp coil to it and I measured the current and waveform. It was a 16A at 240V charging car. Assuming it was fed from a source greater than 16A it would throw away the excess current.

A switching supply like the car's charger has a very bad raw power factor but it was compensated to a power factor of one. At full power the current wave form was nearly a sine wave. At reduced current it resembles a triangle wave with rounded points.

One of these days I will look at my "B" ( Tesla charger ) but I assume it also has a good power factor. Since it works fine I am in no hurry.

The multi meters I have used on my OpenEVSE units use a small capacitor to drop the voltage. I have measured 10 volt amps. but only 2 Watts. It is a good thing that residential power meters only measure watts!

GlennD;
Seems you have a good handle on the Leaf's charger. The manual shows it's "operating principle" containing the following functions;

AC noise filter
Rectifier Circuit 1
Power Factor Corrector
Inverter
Insulation (isolation?) transformer AND rectifier Circuit 2
High voltage DC output circuit

I'm impressed! but seems very complicated. My guess is it will take any "garbage" AC and use it? I'm not an electronics engineer, but would like to understand the circuitry better. I'd suspect that being flexible with AC voltages from 100 to 250, 50 and 60 hz, bad waveforms, with the ultimate requirement to NOT damage a 360 volt li-ion battery system while fairly fast charging, is a "complicated" task.

In contrast, the DC quick charge shows really nothing but a voltage sensor and charge relay - with complicated safety logic. I would have thought there would be some major DC/DC voltage conversion so that a quick charger could service many types of EVs. Again, I'd like to understand this better - I'll continue to study.

A power factor of 20% is not good! Imagine designing a 10,000 watt power supply with such a power factor. Interesting that APC/Schneider has been able to go from a power factor of .8 to 1 recently in their next gen of big UPSs! I get off topic easily.
2012 Leaf SL; 46,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

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keydiver
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Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledge

Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:52 pm

Marktm wrote: I would have thought there would be some major DC/DC voltage conversion so that a quick charger could service many types of EVs.
If I recall, all that intelligence is built into the QC station. Once it communicates with the Leaf, it ramps up the voltage and current to the values communicated to it by the Leaf, or whatever EV is plugged in. That way, as you said, a QC station can accomodate a wide range of voltages and current.
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grandizer52
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Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:39 pm

Back when I rode motorcycles it was quite the fraternity. You'd always wave when you saw a fellow motorcyclist. The only guys that would sometimes not wave back were the harley riders. Nobody in a leaf waves back. Ever. They just drive by... oblivious.[/quote]


trying to change that..you know like jeep drivers...I honk and wave like a retard, most stare

grandizer52
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Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:15 pm

kikngas wrote:I don't even HAVE the LEAF yet, and am amazed at some of the reactions I get when I talk about it.

Does it look... umm... you know, weird?
Aren't electric cars like REALLY expensive?
Right, so you can go over 80 miles, but you can only go like 40MPH right?
Sure, but where are you going to plug in it? ...well there ARE a few outlets around.
But you need so much power you'll blow all the fuses! ...or I'll need to be sure there is a charge controller doing the thinking.

...and I figure I'll save $50 a month on gas ...sure but your electric bill is going to go up too. So that's just gonna cancel out. Right, but I already accounted for the $15 increase in electric when I quoted the $50 in net savings. But that's me, I don't drive as much as the national average. How much do you spend on gas in a month? ...well, I don't know.

So how do I try and explain that the car saves you money to someone that apparently doesn't care how much their car costs? ...unless it costs "more" than ICE. THAT they care about.

How do I explain that 80 miles is plenty, when they have no idea how many miles they drive?

I think perhaps it's better NOT to try and explain. The answers quickly get more complicated then they are interested in, and for the rest of their life electric cars will be "complicated".

I'm thinking maybe I need to keep it simple, more like this:

But you can't go as far in winter right? Right, just like an ICE car. I can still only go twice as far as I need to.
But how do you know what sort of plug to use? It's about like deciding which gas pump to use.
But what if your battery catches fire? Well, then I'll do the same thing you would if your fuel line catches fire... RUN.
But how do you know you will save on maintenance when BEVs are such new and unproven tech? Well, they've been using heavy duty electric motors in factories for many decades. But I also know that the last 5 things I paid to fix on my ICE do not even exist on the LEAF.
But you'll have to replace the batteries! Right, and it's still cheaper.http://cleantechnica.com/2013/04/07/nis ... mparisons/
But the batteries are toxic waste. Actually they plan to repackage them into grid storage for wind farms, and then will recycle them after that.
But the batteries are really heavy, so it can't be very efficient. Actually, the lithium batteries have 5 times the power density of the batteries you are thinking of. And I don't have to lug around 100 pounds of gas, and tank everywhere I go.
Sure you have no exhaust pipe, but you're just pushing the pollution to the dirty coal power plant. OK, I've read government studies that show BEV is still less CO2 and that coal isn't as dirty as it used to be... but I'm not gonna go there. My car charges (will charge) at night, and you know all those windmills over in the neighboring towns? Well there's lots of wind at night. And more and more wind and solar all the time on the grid. So, let me just claim that my car will get cleaner and cleaner over the next decade during it's life, and an ICE car will not.
But you are going to put stress on the power grid and it will crash. See above, wind power. I'm using nighttime grid, the grid we worry about crashing is daytime.
But you can't go as far when you go fast. Right, just as with your ICE.
So why don't you just spend $5,000 less and drive a hybred? Because even with all of the added complexity of having both an engine and fuel system and a battery and electrical system, it still doesn't get noticeably better mileage then my 1994 Honda Del Sol.
So it gets over 100 MPGe, but there's no gas, so how do they even KNOW that? Well, umhem :roll: , they look at the energy available in the fuel, and the energy that actually drives the wheels and figure it out. And they figured out that 80% of the energy in your gallon of gas goes in to heat rather than driving the wheels. Did you ever notice how HOT your ICE car gets? (and I'm curious to see how hot my LEAF's "engine" compartment will get, can I suggest they put their hand there to see it is not so dangerously hot?)
Sure my ICE is only 20% efficient, but your power plant has line losses before the power even GETS to your car. (OK, how far to take this one?), The line losses are typically about 7%, which is actually about the same as the fuel used to bring your crude oil from halfway across the globe to a refinery where they burn fuel to boil it all and make gasoline, and jet fuel and etc. How much energy do you think it would take to boil a barrel of oil? They use so much energy in the refining process that you could instead put that in to run my inefficient power plant, cross the inefficient grid, charge my car, and I'll still have enough to go 10 miles just on the energy used to refine a gallon of gas. So in any comparison with gas, you have to keep in mind that I always start 10MPG ahead of you. Oh, and some electricity comes from hydroelectric, solar, wind, and nuclear (well at least we can say nuclear doesn't produce large amounts of CO2). These (ok nuclear is a mess, but the other 3) don't require fuel to bring across the globe, they don't require fuel to refine, they don't require fuel to pump in and out of tanks, they don't require fuel to bring to the gas station. Does that sound more efficient?

What do you think, are these answers inline with what the person asking is ready to grasp? They KNOW oil is dirty, they KNOW a semi truck burns diesel to bring their gas to the station, they KNOW their car gets VERY hot, they can SEE all of the moving parts in their ICE, they've PAID for repairs to things that don't exist in a BEV. But a LOT of what they KNOW is 30 years old, or simply miscomparisons of numbers. For example, they confuse electric line losses with overall efficiency of producing electricity. They know coal is dirty. They don't see a comparison of electric to gas as fair, because you haven't accounted for where the electricity comes from, yet they fail to try and apply the same logic to their gas.

So, I'm thinking the more I can turn the question around and ask them about their ICE, the more they might start to realize they are picking nits or believing hype. What do you think?

I know this is an old posting, but adding my KW to this...I'm in the navy..ok retired hours ago, served on 5 nuclear submarines..and 2 diesel powered subs,,,
I get a lot of the same questions you listed above..the hybrid cars "it's new technology"...really we weren't using that same technology from 1900, till we got rid of the last diesel/electric boat in 07...why are cars now catching on
and the whole your electric bill, well if its day time, i use the 240, cause i have 20 solar panels, if night, 120..cause well its night..
know what happens in a battery fire, yea same as a fuel oil fire...
but guess what,,,we're not involved in the price of gas argument anymore hahahaha

kikngas
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Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:19 pm

grandizer52 wrote: but guess what,,,we're not involved in the price of gas argument anymore hahahaha
Yes! Since I wrote that, I've had my LEAF nearly a year and a half. And now had the opportunity to buy in to a community solar garden. For $6,000 I bought the rights to the energy from 8 panels. This is enough to power my LEAF 11,000 miles/year (which was my actual usage first full year, a tad under national average of 13,000). So, I've essentially prepaid for 20 years of fuel. Fuel enough to go 220,000 pollution-free miles. No foreign wars, nor exploding trains and trucks, no cancer linked to solar seepage into groundwater, and no price increases (the contract on the solar garden gets me a credit in kWh to my electric bill, regardless of the current price per kWh).

I will mount my window cling when the garden goes online this Spring. It says "$1.00 per gallon, 8 solar panels, 20 years of fuel".

Don't try this with your dirty ICE!

It's really amazing how the numbers actually work when you understand what you are calculating. Today gas is $1.59 here. You should point out that I had to pay up front for the above deal. Certainly true. But, even with todays "low" gas prices, and a return on investment added, I'm still paying less. Paying less regardless of any presumed compounding or inflation.

Glad you enjoyed the post.

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RegGuheert
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Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:43 pm

kikngas wrote:And now had the opportunity to buy in to a community solar garden. For $6,000 I bought the rights to the energy from 8 panels. This is enough to power my LEAF 11,000 miles/year (which was my actual usage first full year, a tad under national average of 13,000). So, I've essentially prepaid for 20 years of fuel. Fuel enough to go 220,000 pollution-free miles. No foreign wars, nor exploding trains and trucks, no cancer linked to solar seepage into groundwater, and no price increases (the contract on the solar garden gets me a credit in kWh to my electric bill, regardless of the current price per kWh).
Precisely!

And we are also not wasting valuable farmland to grow fuel. It takes MUCH less land area to fuel the BEV than to grow fuel (1/100th according to the link, but I suspect it may be more like 1/10th as much). In many cases, the area used to fuel the BEVs is roof area, so it does not consume ANY additional land.
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