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LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4674
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:04 am

Stoaty wrote:
desiv wrote:Why, what is GMs approach for replacing batteries?
Not needing to replace them due to limiting the depth of discharge and liquid cooling of the batteries (and they may be more rugged due to construction with ceramic separator).
... and with a gas engine backup, even if it does lose some range later in life, at least you aren't left with a lawn ornament.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

tkdbrusco
Posts: 510
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Delivery Date: 31 Aug 2014
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Re: Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:35 am

ILETRIC wrote:
Stoaty wrote:Not gonna happen. Nissan is in the business of selling cars, not batteries. The longer range will come in a new car.
Excellent point. And even if Nissan does offer a retrofit 100 to 120-mile battery for '11s and '12s guess how long will it take to recharge it at 3.3?

This is when I realized, standing in Kia lot, it was time to chuck my '11. The chances that Nissan would actually take care of me was almost nil, and the 3.3 on-board was going to take me nowhere fast. And the resale price was going to reflect that in light of the onslaught of new cars with 6.6 capabilities. AND bigger range (such as my wonderful Kia; 93-97 freeway miles).
I think that this will depend upon the PR regarding so many Gen1's on the market, their resale and what happens to them. You'd better believe that if there are 100,000+ Gen1 leafs that are unsellable because the battery costs too much to replace, there will be a lot of bad PR. How does that speak toward the environmental issues? I can't imaging an electric car that is basically scrap at 100K miles is better for the environment than an ICE car (with low mpg) that will go for 200,000+ miles. Not a chance! This is why I think that a few things may happen with the Gen1 battery in a couple years. (1) price will drop slightly. Or (2) price stays the same and they bump the range up by 20 miles or so, just enough to make it a more viable option. They won't want to cut into new EV sales, but my guess is that they will have plenty of those without the early adopters. They will try to keep us happy in a very minimalist way and also avoid negative PR.
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
www.theevconsultant.com

desiv
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:10 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2015
Leaf Number: 018850
Location: Lincoln City, Oregon

Re: Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:40 am

tkdbrusco wrote:hey won't want to cut into new EV sales, but my guess is that they will have plenty of those without the early adopters. They will try to keep us happy in a very minimalist way and also avoid negative PR.
I suppose another option if it gets to be a problem for Nissan is that they might offer a larger than normal "trade-in" towards a new Nissan. Then they can pull the older Gen1's off the road and retire them....

desiv
2012 Leaf SL - Silver (gone - traded in)
2017 Bolt LT - Red

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14107
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:06 pm

wow, I guess this should be re-titled "Sorry I bought a LEAF when for many more dollars, I can get a BMW" but then again, I guess "LEAF" can be replaced by "Nissan" and still be accurate.

We all wondered why Nissan did what they did when the put out the battery without protection and I guess now we are seeing some of the reasoning. Ford's replacement pack is more expensive than BMW but with all its protection, it will last longer for most (not me though) and that is a good thing since is has to last 3X longer to justify its replacement cost.

What I am curious to know is what is BMW replacing? Just the battery pack I am guessing which means its value is not that much higher since there is little reason to change the TMS system with it.

But we have Nissan who currently has the greatest in house battery manufacturing production capacity verses a company that does not. I would expect there to be a huge cost difference.

As far as rumours that Nissan is subsidizing battery prices; welll that means they are doing 2011/12 owners a favor so now that has become some sort of detractor?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14107
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:12 pm

Stoaty wrote:
tkdbrusco wrote:I'm convinced that in 3 years Nissan will do the following: ... (2) Offer a replacement pack for Gen1 Leaf that has slightly more miles of range (about 115-125) and sell it for $6000 or so.
Not gonna happen. Nissan is in the business of selling cars, not batteries. The longer range will come in a new car.

have to agree. I don't see any manufacturer having enough extra cells available to do this for years. look for aftermarket options for something like this. I still feel that the sales are being restricted by 1; battery technology and 2; battery supply
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

johnrhansen
Posts: 1100
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:23 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Jun 2013
Leaf Number: 409445
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:45 pm

desiv wrote:
tkdbrusco wrote:hey won't want to cut into new EV sales, but my guess is that they will have plenty of those without the early adopters. They will try to keep us happy in a very minimalist way and also avoid negative PR.
I suppose another option if it gets to be a problem for Nissan is that they might offer a larger than normal "trade-in" towards a new Nissan. Then they can pull the older Gen1's off the road and retire them....

desiv

I really like that option. When the higher range one comes out, I would jump if they offered me something like 15 grand for my old one.
2013 S model with quick charge package.
AV 30 amp level 2 EVSE, Bosch PowerMax 30 Amp EVSE, EVSE upgraded EVSE.

Moof
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:11 pm
Leaf Number: 004023
Location: Beaverton, OR

Re: Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:00 pm

ILETRIC wrote: And even if Nissan does offer a retrofit 100 to 120-mile battery for '11s and '12s guess how long will it take to recharge it at 3.3?
If you offered a 33 kWh usable battery, 10 hours. Except that for most folks out there would not be driving significantly more miles on a daily basis than they are now. Most folks don't completely drain their existing battery on a daily basis, just on the occasional longer trip.

A bigger battery means 2 things for most current owners. First you can go on longer occasional trips, such as out to the cost for me where I cannot make it easily now. Second it means that 5-10 years out there will still be enough range left to do local trips more easily.

Paradoxically a small battery needs a faster charger than a big battery since you are in more need to frequent top-ups to finish trips, while a big battery has extra reserve to get you home where the car is likely to have a good 10-12 hours to sit on the charger. A battery needs to be sized for your longest trip days, while a charger needs to support your average mileage. A fair number of people get by on level 1 charging at home already.
2011 Cayenne Red bought used with 30k miles, manufacture data of 5/2011
42k miles 82% SOH 11 bars 218 GIDs at full charge
Running with Michelin Premier A/S with 42 psi for 10k miles

mkjayakumar
Posts: 1219
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:13 am
Delivery Date: 08 Mar 2012
Location: Plano, TX

Re: Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:14 pm

Paradoxically a small battery needs a faster charger than a big battery since you are in more need to frequent top-ups to finish trips, while a big battery has extra reserve to get you home where the car is likely to have a good 10-12 hours to sit on the charger. A battery needs to be sized for your longest trip days, while a charger needs to support your average mileage. A fair number of people get by on level 1 charging at home already.
Fair point. As you reduce the need for opportunity or destination charging - for daily errands and commutes scenarios only - by providing a much bigger battery then you rarely end up using L2 anyway. And in that case 3.3 or 6.0 kW doesn't matter that much.

For instance I charge at my office everyday only because I have to. If I have a larger battery with 100 miles of highway range, then I wouldn't even bother plugging in at office.
2011 Leaf, 30K miles, returned after 24 month lease.
Currently leasing 2014 Leaf SV.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 2048
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:02 am

Moof wrote: Paradoxically a small battery needs a faster charger than a big battery since you are in more need to frequent top-ups to finish trips, while a big battery has extra reserve to get you home where the car is likely to have a good 10-12 hours to sit on the charger. A battery needs to be sized for your longest trip days, while a charger needs to support your average mileage. A fair number of people get by on level 1 charging at home already.
Well said. I have been trying to explain this to people for a long time now.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

bigrob90
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:41 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Leaf Number: 316941
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact: Website

Re: Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:37 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
Moof wrote: Paradoxically a small battery needs a faster charger than a big battery since you are in more need to frequent top-ups to finish trips, while a big battery has extra reserve to get you home where the car is likely to have a good 10-12 hours to sit on the charger. A battery needs to be sized for your longest trip days, while a charger needs to support your average mileage. A fair number of people get by on level 1 charging at home already.
Well said. I have been trying to explain this to people for a long time now.
I was glad I found this forum a couple of months ago, because I had never thought about how battery capacity and charge rate would be related. The speed of DC charging is somewhat overrated. With a big battery, high charge rates primarily would be of use on road trips, or in the cases of serious road warriors who drive all day for a living. And I think DC charging would still be much better suited for that. If the Leaf's battery capacity doubles, I'd be fine at the current charging rate. In fact, I really only got the QC package on my S for the 6.6, since I do need to charge between trips. If I had a 48kwh batter, I'd not have bothered.
Cayenne Red 2015 Leaf S w/QC
2 year, 15k lease

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