Valdemar
Posts: 2621
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 6:24 pm

As to what to do in this situation. I suspect the whole situation is not as tragic as it seems. Yes, the Leaf failed to deliver on the TCO expectations big time, no doubt about that. But, you probably were able to cash in on the $5,000 CVRP rebate at the time, so your cost for the car was $22,500 give or take. You owe as much as the car is worth now which is $6,000, fine. So ignoring interest for simplicity, 4 years, 67,000 miles, your cost was about $16,500, which comes down to about $350/mo. This is really not bad for a $35,000 car or even a $22,500 car considering these were the years with the highest gas prices and you managed to avoid at least 10 oil changes and 2 major maintenance visits to a dealer. Just get rid of the Leaf and lease a new one, so at least you know there will be no surprises.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

smkettner
Posts: 7373
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 6:32 pm

Leafer77 wrote:Homework reference was about the capability of the car, when it was sold to me. Trust me, I considered doing lots of things during that last 1,000 miles, but it couldn't do them in good conscious.
From my reading on this board I don't think 4 bar loss is exactly the warranty thresh hold. I encourage anyone to take the car in if three have been gone for a bit and you are approaching 60,000 miles or 60 months.

Not saying to abuse the battery. One of the short heat waves may have been enough for the car to limit capacity and trigger the warranty. Nothing wrong with letting the car sit for 6 months and see what happens.

I really see no obligation to be extra nice to Nissan over this known issue. I knew mine would be close and the range at 2 bar loss was inadequate. I took my loss and leased a RAV4-EV. LEAF was to be a 100 mile car in general conditions when we put down our deposits in April 2010. If LEAF was as Nissan promised I would still be happily driving #2024.

All water under the bridge at this point. I hope you find your solution. My words are primarily directed at others as they approach 60,000 miles. Best of luck with your decision.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

Valdemar
Posts: 2621
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 6:34 pm

abasile wrote: However, I would not be able to bring myself in good conscience to go out of my way to abuse my LEAF's battery, especially considering that a large factor in my purchase of this car was environmental stewardship.... Sure, I could attempt to rationalize abusing the battery, but it's just not worth it to me. Besides, losing two more bars in less than a year, while putting on no more than another ~4K miles, is nothing to laugh at.
Yeah, too late now. I know now I should have started driving the car "normally" since day 1, would be much happier with it overall.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

User avatar
abasile
Posts: 1922
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2011
Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 6:53 pm

smkettner wrote:Not saying to abuse the battery. One of the short heat waves may have been enough for the car to limit capacity and trigger the warranty. Nothing wrong with letting the car sit for 6 months and see what happens.
I agree. If I were on the cusp of qualifying for the warranty, I'd let it sit and degrade on its own.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

eloder
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Jan 2015

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 6:58 pm

So, it's more than just chemistry. The batteries weren't "perfectly fine".
Leafs in the colder parts of the US are doing a lot better than Leafs in the south.

Active TMS makes batteries in southern Texas operate at the same temperatures as cars in Seattle. Active TMS adds a couple thousand or so to the car cost but other EV drivers seem to be quite happy with 1-2% range losses a year with active TM systems.
2015 red Leaf S w/ Quick Charge
Central Ohio

Valdemar
Posts: 2621
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 7:01 pm

eloder wrote: Active TMS adds a couple thousand or so to the car cost but other EV drivers seem to be quite happy with 1-2% range losses a year with active TM systems.
Those happy Tesla drivers, good for them!
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

cwerdna
Posts: 9664
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 7:09 pm

Leafer77 wrote: It made sense financially and appeared to meet my 60 mile commute easily. The vehicle sticker had 106 city and 92 highway miles. So I pre-ordered a 2011 Nissan Leaf SL-E and it was officially purchased May 31, 2011.
....
Around 6/13/2014 and 52,109 miles, I lost my third capacity bar. I could still make the commute due to my work Blink Vehicle Car Chargers.

Around 1/6/2015 and 61,150 miles, I lost my fourth capacity bar. My range is now limited to 40 miles on the highway. Forget running the AC. Forget running an errand at lunch time or after work. Forget being a Soccer volunteer Coach. Forget participating in my kids extra curricular activities.

...
I'm completely at a loss, as to how I ended up where I am. I did my homework. I drove the car as it was designed, averaging 4.4kWH. I maintained it properly.
You didn't do your homework. The 106 city and 92 highway are (pretty useless) MPGe, NOT city and highway mile ranges! The range rating was 73 miles. See http://blog.caranddriver.com/2011-nissa ... -released/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and your original sticker, if you have it still. You can find many more sticker pics via https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... %20sticker" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Confirmation of numbers at https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... s&id=30979" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

As has been pointed out, if I were down to my 9th bar, I would've done something to get it down to 8 bars before 5 years/60K miles (e.g. send the car off for a thorough baking in say Vegas or Phoenix at 100% charge) given that http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13192" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was announced on 6/7/13. I'd imagine you should've gotten some snail mail on this, as well.

From the range chart, (looking at the 60-66% capacity version), if you average 4.3 miles/kWh, you should be able to go 56 miles. Also, see results of http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, in particular Blue494, that had 8 capacity bars.

That said, Nissan had many numerous statements on paper and video to lead '11 and '12 Leaf buyers/lessees that the remaining capacity after 5, 8 (?) or 10 (?) years (don't remember the figures right now) would be MUCH better than what people are experiencing outside say the Pacific Northwest (e.g. Seattle).

edit: https://youtu.be/DShtvd5jJHQ?t=58s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; claimed 70 to 80% remaining capacity over a 10 year life. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/104 ... f-the-plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; also claims that (found via http://www.greencarreports.com/news/107 ... ting-leafs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

If you're going to continue to drive the car and ride around near the bottom, you're going to need something to display battery gids (e.g. LeafSpy)... As you well know, the GOM and instrumentation in the '11 and '12 are crap. You can still drive around a bit more after hitting LBW (1st warning).
Last edited by cwerdna on Fri May 29, 2015 7:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Valdemar
Posts: 2621
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 7:16 pm

I did my homework. Heck, I even rented a Leaf for a couple days to get a feel if it'll work for me. I even considered it will have 30% capacity loss after 5 years just to err on the safe side and not 20% as it was written in the papers that I signed. No dice.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

eloder
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Jan 2015

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 7:23 pm

Valdemar wrote:
eloder wrote: Active TMS adds a couple thousand or so to the car cost but other EV drivers seem to be quite happy with 1-2% range losses a year with active TM systems.
Those happy Tesla drivers, good for them!
Smart EDs and Volts both see only 1-2% reported capacity loss a year, and both of those have smaller batteries than the Leaf. RAV4 EV has no degradation issues but it has a larger battery.

There are multiple reports of smart ED drivers with 30k+ miles with less than two miles of capacity loss, and Volts of course have plenty of history with the battery not running into much range degradation at all.

RAV4 EV also has had no problems with significant degradation.

I'm not sure why the Leaf community is so against active TMS. It may add cost to the car, but it'll turn two battery replacements a decade into one battery replacement every 10-15 years (and you'll have the benefit of a real battery warranty because the manufacturer knows their batteries will last).
2015 red Leaf S w/ Quick Charge
Central Ohio

User avatar
abasile
Posts: 1922
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2011
Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 7:26 pm

Valdemar wrote:I did my homework.
Likewise, I figured that by driving slowly on mountain climbs and limiting motor power to ~20 kW, and by keeping the LEAF in a cool climate most of the time, I'd probably do better than 20% loss after five years. I also figured that Nissan was being conservative, and took comfort in the fact that Phoenix, AZ was one of their initial markets for the LEAF.

I'm not against active TMS...
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

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