Valdemar
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Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 7:36 pm

eloder wrote: RAV4 EV also has had no problems with significant degradation.
Tony W. should be able to comment on this. And I'm not against TMS, but it probably wouldn't help the original battery much anyway.

Also I tend to accept reports on other cars with a grain of salt. No other car has been scrutinized as fully as the Leaf. The Volt has a fairly large buffer on the top end, so it is not clear if its perceived battery pack stability can be attributed mainly to the TMS. Same likely applies to the Spark EV.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

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Stoaty
Posts: 4487
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 7:49 pm

abasile wrote:However, I would not be able to bring myself in good conscience to go out of my way to abuse my LEAF's battery, especially considering that a large factor in my purchase of this car was environmental stewardship.
Same here. If my Leaf was right on the edge (3 bars + loser) at say, 55,000 miles I might be willing to give it a little "push", but just can't bring myself to abuse the battery or even push it hard otherwise. Lost my second bar recently at 40,000 miles and almost 4 years, so it would take a lot of abuse to lose 2 more bars in one year even if I wanted to go that route. I will probably be a 4 bar loser at 60,000 miles and 6 years, although if the battery aging model is accurate I might be able to go to 70,000 miles and 7 years. If the latter I would be pretty satisfied overall. However, while I was 0.5% ahead of the battery aging model a year ago, I am now 0.7% behind the battery aging model. I suspect the difference will increase quite a bit over the next 1-2 years, as calendar aging doesn't appear to be slowing down as much as the model predicts.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

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TonyWilliams
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Location: San Diego
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Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 7:53 pm

Valdemar wrote:
eloder wrote: RAV4 EV also has had no problems with significant degradation.
Tony W. should be able to comment on this. And I'm not against TMS, but it probably wouldn't help the original battery much anyway.

Also I tend to accept reports on other cars with a grain of salt. No other car has been scrutinized as fully as the Leaf. The Volt has a fairly large buffer on the top end, so it is not clear if its battery pack stability can be attributed mainly to the TMS. Same likely applies to the Smart EV.
Well, this isn't the thread for this, to be honest.

The Volt has the benefit of:

1) Robust cooling
2) Limited cell usage (20%-80% when new)
3) Superior anode to LEAF (even with same chemistry cells)
4) Masked degradation (they can just expand to 19% - 81%, then 18% - 82%, etc)

So, Volt owners believe that their cells don't degrade. Yes they do, but the range doesn't change due to degradation up to about maybe 25-30%.

The RAV4 EV uses a version of method (1) and (4) above.. The cells absolutley degrade, as all batteries do. My #1134 is at 51289 miles right now, and 30 months in service, and I have 12% degradation. I consider this quite good.

Toyota hides this degradation from the end user by the following method:

---- Normal charge --- Extended charge

SOC% --- 83% ----------- 97% (new car)
SOC% --- 89% ----------- 97% (50,000 miles, 12% degradation)
SOC % --- 95% ---------- 97% (100,000 mile guess, 24% degradation)

As to the Tesla Model S owner claims, heck, I find it hard to believe that Tesla would fudge the numbers as others do, but I could be wrong. I'd love to test a 100,000 mile Tesla that has "1%-2%" rated range loss with its actual range performance under prescribed conditions.

I do know that if I did that test, and it turned out unfavorable to the party line, the crap would hit the fan like it did here when I called out Nissan with their battery issues.

*******

RAV4 EV battery degradation
Make sure that the battery is at room temperature, then:

1) Fully charge vehicle (extended) with the J1772 port (not CHAdeMO)
2) Battery must be near room temperature
3) Turn off cabin climate control with "OFF" button
4) Disconnect the 12 volt battery negative cables and leave off for several hours minimum (overnight is ideal)

Next day:

5) Reconnect 12 volt battery
6) Hold foot on brake and press START button with key fob nearby
7) Energy gauge will show Full (16 illuminated segments) and "LO" on the GOM
8) Wait for navigation unit to complete its start up
9) Press START with brake pedal depressed a second time
10) The displayed range is "RATED RANGE" at 3.5 miles per kWh

11) Divide this Rated Range by 146 to get usable battery capacity compared to new.

Example: 142 rated range / 146 = 97.2% battery capacity from new

********

If you drive the RAV4 EV at my standard test speed of 100km / 62mph ground speed, it will go almost EXACTLY the rated range.

TEST DRIVING PROTOCOL - dry, hard surface level road with no wind or cabin climate control with new condition battery at 70F, no elevation changes, "out-and-back" or loop course to compensate for any wind, 62mph / 100km/h GROUND speed as measured by GPS.

So, if the car is new, it will bang out 146 miles and the rated range will be 146 under the prescribed conditions.

If the rated range is 135, it will go 135.
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Fri May 29, 2015 10:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Valdemar
Posts: 2627
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Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 8:02 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:My #1134 is at 51289 miles right now, and 30 months in service, and I have 12% degradation. I consider this quite good.
Thank you. Would you say that you cycle your battery deep on a daily basis?
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

User avatar
TonyWilliams
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Location: San Diego
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Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 8:09 pm

Valdemar wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:My #1134 is at 51289 miles right now, and 30 months in service, and I have 12% degradation. I consider this quite good.
Thank you. Would you say that you cycle your battery deep on a daily basis?
No, I dont (these are the same questions / accusations I got when I reported loss of range with my first LEAF... I must be abusing it).

1) I charge to "Normal" daily, with occasional "Extended" use
2) I live in San Diego (weather and heat is not a factor)
3) My cars are mostly garaged in a finished garage
4) Somebody will bring up that this car has been equipped with CHAdeMO, so there's the "smoking gun", when it fact, this car has had about 12% degradation since last year. It actually hasn't changed much in the last year, but then I don't drive it as much as I used to.
5) I made one real trip with this car, May 1, 2015 weekend, using only CHAdeMO for 1250 miles. The car did great, and the cells never exceeded 47C while charging. They quickly cool to about 35-40C in normal driving.
6) This car did do BC2BC-2012, and yes, that is a max effort to extend range (all charging at 40 amp AC or less)
7) I ran this car out of power once, and turtled it a handful of times... 5-ish, maybe?

Here's an observation between a 30% degraded LEAF and a future 30% degradead RAV4 EV... the former is borderline usable for anybody, and the latter is just a bit of a nuisance. Even at 30% degradation, the RAV4 EV can cruise about 100 miles down the freeway.

The 12% degradation is barely noticed on this car, which is why it is easy to belive that Tesla owners believe that they have "near zero" degradation... IF THEIR INSTRUMENTS TELL THEM THAT.

The far greater range issue is cold weather, which affects all EVs to varying degrees. Like a LEAF, I can easily take a 20-30% hit on range on a cold day.

One final note; by range, I mean how far the car can go, not what the GOM says.
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Fri May 29, 2015 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Valdemar
Posts: 2627
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
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Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 8:20 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
Valdemar wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:My #1134 is at 51289 miles right now, and 30 months in service, and I have 12% degradation. I consider this quite good.
Thank you. Would you say that you cycle your battery deep on a daily basis?
No, I dont (these are the same questions / accusations I got when I reported loss of range with my first LEAF... I must be abusing it).

1) I charge to "Normal" daily, with occasional "Extended" use
2) I live in San Diego (weather and heat is not a factor)
3) My cars are mostly garaged in a finished garage
4) Somebody will bring up that this car has been equipped with CHAdeMO, so there's the "smoking gun", when it fact, this car has had about 12% degradation since last year. It actually hasn't changed much in the last year, but then I don't drive it as much as I used to.
5) I made one real trip with this car, May 1, 2015 weekend, using only CHAdeMO for 1250 miles. The car did great, and the cells never exceeded 47C while charging. They quickly cool to about 35-40C in normal driving.
I wanted to compare my Leaf to your RAV4, just for the heck of it. So we have a RAV4 with a large pack, no deep cycling, 30 months in, 51289 miles at 12% loss vs. (at the time) my Leaf with a smaller pack, 2x cycling as the RAV4, 33 months in, 53000 miles at 21% loss. Can we say that thanks to TMS the RAV has almost twice as less degradation as the Leaf? Probably not. I'm guessing some 30% better thanks to TMS, the rest is due to more cycling.

And the real question is, will you pay $2,000 more for a car whose battery with TMS will last 30% more for your needs, robbing you of range every day, everything else being equal? $2,000 is almost exactly 30% of the new replacement Leaf pack, installed.
Last edited by Valdemar on Fri May 29, 2015 8:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

LeftieBiker
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Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 8:31 pm

The situation with the early Leaf reminds me of what those of us who were early adopters of two-wheeled EVs (mainly Vespa-type scooters and E-bicycles) went through. The main difference is that while the Leaf was generally built to high standards of quality, it was almost impossible to find a well-built scooter or bicycle. Only the Oxygen Lepton scooter stood out in that area, and between costing about $8k when new and having a top speed of 25 MPH (28 indicated) that little Italian scooter filled a very limited niche. The Vextrix electric "motorcycle" ( really more a maxi-scooter) turned out to, like the Leaf, have fatal flaws in how the battery pack was managed and charged. Even Brammo and Zero are still having quality issues with their much more sophisticated (and expensive) bikes.

Anyone want to buy a US-assembled, Chinese-parts ZEV 5000? Between it getting wrecked while in transit, to me making the tragic mistake of letting the company "rebuild" it half-assedly, I've never gotten more than a handful of decent rides for my $4k+ investment...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Fri May 29, 2015 11:11 pm

eloder wrote: Smart EDs and Volts both see only 1-2% reported capacity loss a year, and both of those have smaller batteries than the Leaf. RAV4 EV has no degradation issues but it has a larger battery.

There are multiple reports of smart ED drivers with 30k+ miles with less than two miles of capacity loss, and Volts of course have plenty of history with the battery not running into much range degradation at all.
Source for the above, esp. the Smart ED? How are they determining this capacity loss?

(I don't care as much about Volt given what Tony already posted...)

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

fooljoe
Posts: 646
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Delivery Date: 10 Jun 2011
Location: Seal Beach, CA
Contact: Website

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 1:05 am

cwerdna wrote: (e.g. send the car off for a thorough baking in say Vegas or Phoenix at 100% charge)
Who's in for a "group buy" to hire a car carrier to ship our 2011s to Death Valley for the summer? :lol: I laugh now but as June 2016 creeps closer and closer and I'm still sitting at 9 bars the option becomes more and more appealing...
Last edited by fooljoe on Sat May 30, 2015 1:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
RavCharge.com | 2012 Rav4-EV | 2011 Leaf SL w/QC batt replaced 11/20/15 | Clipper Creek CS-60 | EVSEupgraded 2013 Leaf EVSE | 3.84kw PV

cwerdna
Posts: 9764
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 1:13 am

^^^
Haha... As a reminder (or new info for some), http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 07#p215907" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; can give some folks an idea about the crazy temps in Phoenix.

Googling for phoenix weather shows that the forecast high temps for Sat, Sun, Mon are 106 F, 107, 107, respectively, w/lows in the mid to upper 70s... The lowest forecasted high temp for the next week is 97 F.
Last edited by cwerdna on Sat May 30, 2015 1:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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