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abasile
Posts: 1922
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2011
Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 11:01 am

edatoakrun wrote:I remind you that exposure to very high ambient temperatures (120 f for 24 hours) will void ALL LEAF battery warrantees.
I'm not aware of a single location on earth, at least in the out-of-doors, that sustains 120°F for entire 24 hour periods. How could leaving a vehicle parked in a legal parking spot can be construed as abuse, unless perhaps the battery is left fully charged for a long time or allowed to drain to dead empty? If a vehicle cannot even take being parked somewhere, then that is evidence of a defect! That said, I'd rather focus on earning another $6000 through my own labor than on trying to beat Nissan at their game.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 11:17 am

TimLee wrote:Where did the LEAF sales contract document that the vehicle had a 24 kWh battery?
It didn't.

Nissan, AFAIK, has never publically stated to owners the initial capacity of any MY LEAF, how much different packs vary in capacity between different LEAFs, and how much of that total capacity is available to owners at any temperature, either when manufactured, or when delivered.

Nissan has specified 24 kWh to numerous public agencies, such as the EPA.

Actual initial kWh capacity of four 2012 LEAF batteries, when tested by the procedures used by AVTA, all fell short of 24 kWh:

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/energystorage/DC ... et_EOT.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Full report here:

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/energystorage/Fa ... ffects.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
abasile wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:I remind you that exposure to very high ambient temperatures (120 f for 24 hours) will void ALL LEAF battery warrantees.
I'm not aware of a single location on earth, at least in the out-of-doors, that sustains 120°F for entire 24 hour periods....
But 120F temperatures for 24 hours could be exceeded indoors, even unintentionally, such as during a heat wave in a Phoenix garage with significant heat sources, such as windows exposed to the sun, heat-generating appliances, or another BEV parked inside with ATM, producing a lot of BTU.

Probably pretty easy to exceed 120F for 24 hours, in lots of other ways if that is your intent...
Last edited by edatoakrun on Sat May 30, 2015 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
no condition is permanent

hugenbd
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:34 pm
Delivery Date: 01 May 2015
Leaf Number: 411444
Location: N. Kentucky

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 11:22 am

Hi
Maybe a 2013 junk yard battery would save some money if there is no warranty claim.

I searched on car-part.com and found a 2013 battery for $2755. So about half of a new battery. You would be taking a chance, but it would save some money. Of course you still need labor and the few adapter parts.


2013
Battery
Nissan Leaf (lithium ION battery pack) A $F05543 $2755.13 LKQ Foster Auto Parts USA-OR(Portland) E-mail 1-888-578-5548
2013 SL bought New 5/2015
Northern Kentucky/Cincinnati

minispeed
Posts: 681
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:52 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jul 2014
Location: Ancaster, ON

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 11:35 am

hugenbd wrote:Hi
Maybe a 2013 junk yard battery would save some money if there is no warranty claim.

I searched on car-part.com and found a 2013 battery for $2755. So about half of a new battery. You would be taking a chance, but it would save some money. Of course you still need labor and the few adapter parts.


2013
Battery
Nissan Leaf (lithium ION battery pack) A $F05543 $2755.13 LKQ Foster Auto Parts USA-OR(Portland) E-mail 1-888-578-5548
Also your pack will have some value too, maybe half that would be a good guess.
2015 White SV, after one month 292 GIDS
Best 1 charge drive, 229km (143miles)

Valdemar
Posts: 2632
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 11:57 am

Has anyone successfully paired a used pack with the car, even at a dealership? I don't think so. Nissan has to provide a special card for this process and its unclear if they would be open to this, I'd bet they wouldn't be.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

mbender
Posts: 824
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:11 am
Delivery Date: 31 Aug 2014
Leaf Number: 309606
Location: The Great California Delta, and environs

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 2:28 pm

TimLee wrote:
fooljoe wrote:...The rules of the game are ridiculous, but they are the rules. Nissan doesn't play the game with any conscience, so why should you?...
Large international corporations do not understand the meaning of the word conscience :o
A really good (and loonnng) documentary, spelling this out in excruciating detail, now viewable on YouTube in its entirety: The Corporation.

And veering just a bit more off-topic, this classic clip by the YesMen about Dow/Union Carbide taking responsibility for the Bhopal disaster (1984) is worth watching. So much so that I'm going to embed it:

I think I just felt my paradigm shift.

2012 SL (One of the colors): 2-year lease, 2012+,
2015 S w/QC (A different color): 3-year lease, 2014+,
2017 SV (Same color as 2015 S): 3-year lease, 2017+, lower monthly than either above(!)

hugenbd
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:34 pm
Delivery Date: 01 May 2015
Leaf Number: 411444
Location: N. Kentucky

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 2:45 pm

Valdemar wrote:Has anyone successfully paired a used pack with the car, even at a dealership? I don't think so. Nissan has to provide a special card for this process and its unclear if they would be open to this, I'd bet they wouldn't be.

Really? I thought they had to let independent mechanics work on the car? If they won't allow this it makes junk yard leafs and used battery packs worth even less than the $2700 I mentioned above. Also makes the car that much less attractive as a used vehicle. Leaving the packs to be harvested for other uses. I.E. battery backup power, DIY EV's.
2013 SL bought New 5/2015
Northern Kentucky/Cincinnati

c1987
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:10 pm
Delivery Date: 02 Apr 2011
Location: California Central Coast

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 3:35 pm

Heading toward empty myself. I am slightly tempted to trade in my '11 LEAF for a 2016, but I should be able to get by until the 200 mile (affordable) cars come out in a couple years. Near term I can limp between charge stations for my needs, but will want to have a go anywhere EV in about 5 years. I plan to do some traveling.
Driving a Blue LEAF SL+QC since 4/2/11
1st bar lost at 35K miles, 29 mo.
2nd at 49K miles, 39 mo.
3rd at 61K miles, 50 mo.
4th at 71K miles, 58 mo.
5th at 79K miles, 64 mo.
6th at 85K miles, 71 mo.
New Battery at 88K, 74 mo.
LEAF totaled at 95K, 79 mo.

Valdemar
Posts: 2632
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 3:54 pm

hugenbd wrote:
Valdemar wrote:Has anyone successfully paired a used pack with the car, even at a dealership? I don't think so. Nissan has to provide a special card for this process and its unclear if they would be open to this, I'd bet they wouldn't be.

Really? I thought they had to let independent mechanics work on the car? If they won't allow this it makes junk yard leafs and used battery packs worth even less than the $2700 I mentioned above. Also makes the car that much less attractive as a used vehicle. Leaving the packs to be harvested for other uses. I.E. battery backup power, DIY EV's.
Yup. There might be a solution at some point. Nissan might be willing to produce a pairing card too, but I don't think anyone actually tried to request one, and then you'd still need to visit a dealer for the pairing. The car will drive without pairing in a reduced power mode, think 30mph max. AFAIK today the only way to put a battery from junkyard into your car as a DIY project is to open it up and swap the battery controllers, but it is unclear if this will work between 2011 and later packs. Swapping modules is another option, but again compatibility may be an issue.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

Leafer77
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:38 pm
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 3713

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 5:22 pm

Several comments and questions that I'm replying to:

"Edit: 40 miles seems to be too low for a recent 4 bar loss. What speed are you driving at, and do you have any significant climbs on your commute?"

I drive between 65 - 70 MPH. On an incline on the 15S/15N, near Scripps Ranch I got as low as 55MPH and as high as 70MPH going down the hill near the Escondido Mall. These are not huge elevation changes in my opinion, and don't go on for long. My commute is from San Marcos, Twin Oaks Valley Parkway and Genessee. Maybe check Google Map's for details on the route and elevation.

"You didn't do your homework. The 106 city and 92 highway are (pretty useless) MPGe, NOT city and highway mile ranges! The range rating was 73 miles. See http://blog.caranddriver.com/2011-nissa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... -released/ and your original sticker, if you have it still. You can find many more sticker pics via https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... %20sticker. Confirmation of numbers at https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... s&id=30979."

When I was sold the car, I was given the wrong Sticker, which I still have. It was for a 2011 QX65 2WD. I received the Leaf Sticker around 3-5 days after I purchased the car. I was mostly going off the marketing information I was previously given. All the documents that I received and other online information was suggesting around 100 miles at the time. I have copies of the marketing pamplets and documents. It also didn't help at the time that the salesman pressured me on of the fact that other people had put their deposits down already and would happily buy the car. Remember, this was back in May 2011.

"From the range chart, (looking at the 60-66% capacity version), if you average 4.3 miles/kWh, you should be able to go 56 miles. Also, see results of viewtopic.php?p=228326, in particular Blue494, that had 8 capacity bars."

I hit 8 bars back in January and I'm now at just over 67,000 miles. I'm guessing that I'm getting closer to 7 bars? I don't have any special tools to measure my current capacity, but before I get off the Highway for my exit to Genessee (see the location information above) I get a Low Battery Warning.

"Aside from the legal fight (which is most likely a loser), I wonder if there might be some hope of qualifying for the 8 year / 100k mile warranty. At some point that defective battery is going to degrade so much as to be completely useless, and that could very well occur before 100k miles. Does anyone have any idea what exactly would trigger that warranty?"

In my Arbritation I argued this exact point. That my battery is defective, and the defect should be covered in the 8 year / 100k mile warranty.

"Anyone thought about a shaming web site filled with stories like the OP?"

I am all for participating in something like this. I'd even be willing to post a video of my commute or anything to help.

"Get a GPS, use mile markers and do a test. If that's true, and if you brought the car to a dealer to document the loss at the 6100 then you actually only drove 59658."

This is interesting to consider. I wonder if its worked for anyone else with warranty's that were about to expire. I'll do some Searches, but let me know if you have any specific cases.

"Have you actually tested your range all the way to ~turtle recently?"

No, I haven't done this but I'm getting close to VLBW at times. Seems like some days I don't get a "full charge", even though it appears to complete charging. I'm guessing I'll be getting to Turtle Mode just in time for Christmas or Easter, based on the rate that I'm at. I'll post more information as I get closer. If I put in the Nav, about going further destinations, I get the ominious message that I won't make it. Its not worth the hassle or risk to me at that point.

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