thankyouOB
Posts: 3583
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:14 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 1442
Location: Coastal LA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:45 am

Stoaty wrote:
abasile wrote:However, I would not be able to bring myself in good conscience to go out of my way to abuse my LEAF's battery, especially considering that a large factor in my purchase of this car was environmental stewardship.
Same here. If my Leaf was right on the edge (3 bars + loser) at say, 55,000 miles I might be willing to give it a little "push", but just can't bring myself to abuse the battery or even push it hard otherwise. Lost my second bar recently at 40,000 miles and almost 4 years, so it would take a lot of abuse to lose 2 more bars in one year even if I wanted to go that route. I will probably be a 4 bar loser at 60,000 miles and 6 years, although if the battery aging model is accurate I might be able to go to 70,000 miles and 7 years. If the latter I would be pretty satisfied overall. However, while I was 0.5% ahead of the battery aging model a year ago, I am now 0.7% behind the battery aging model. I suspect the difference will increase quite a bit over the next 1-2 years, as calendar aging doesn't appear to be slowing down as much as the model predicts.
I am a rower in this boat, too.
down two bars about 6 months ago; today's stats are: 44k miles and 4 years plus a month of ownership (not counting losing two months of usage to two separate car repairs).
annual mileage will be way down now with no more commute; so doing closer to 3k miles a year sted of 12k.
i am handicapped in being able to use the car for day trips to museums and other LA sites, but otherwise it continues to serve.
total maintenance has been about $400 in four years, except for replacing the tires early on.

still happy with the car (but I have an ICE alternative), but I will want to test the range soon.
Last edited by thankyouOB on Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
may reserve/delivery 4/30/11
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ECOtality/LADWP/ Blink 4/4/11
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Gardena Nissan, msrp -1k
red SL with etec L3
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GetOffYourGas
Posts: 2052
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:55 am

TonyWilliams wrote:The Low Battery Warning and Very Low Battery warning are dependent on GIDs (a fixed unit of energy).

50 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 4kWh stored (about 3.3kWh usable)
25 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 2kWh stored (about 1.3kWh usable)
I had a feeling this was the case - thanks for confirming (and for providing numbers!). I have noticed that as my battery degrades, I still seem to have the same capacity below LBW - I just hit it sooner.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

thankyouOB
Posts: 3583
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:14 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 1442
Location: Coastal LA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:11 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:The Low Battery Warning and Very Low Battery warning are dependent on GIDs (a fixed unit of energy).

50 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 4kWh stored (about 3.3kWh usable)
25 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 2kWh stored (about 1.3kWh usable)
I had a feeling this was the case - thanks for confirming (and for providing numbers!). I have noticed that as my battery degrades, I still seem to have the same capacity below LBW - I just hit it sooner.

what do these two markers translate to in terms of range?

my calculations seem to come out too high for my typical 4.0 - 4.4 miles/kWh.
that would mean i could get about 3.3 x 4 = 13 miles at LBW
and
5 miles at VLBW.

is that right?
may reserve/delivery 4/30/11
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ECOtality/LADWP/ Blink 4/4/11
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Gardena Nissan, msrp -1k
red SL with etec L3
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User avatar
TonyWilliams
Posts: 10091
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:22 pm

thankyouOB wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:The Low Battery Warning and Very Low Battery warning are dependent on GIDs (a fixed unit of energy).

50 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 4kWh stored (about 3.3kWh usable)
25 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 2kWh stored (about 1.3kWh usable)
I had a feeling this was the case - thanks for confirming (and for providing numbers!). I have noticed that as my battery degrades, I still seem to have the same capacity below LBW - I just hit it sooner.

what do these two markers translate to in terms of range?

my calculations seem to come out too high for my typical 4.0 - 4.4 miles/kWh.
that would mean i could get about 3.3 x 4 = 13 miles at LBW
and
5 miles at VLBW.

is that right?
Yes.

thankyouOB
Posts: 3583
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:14 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 1442
Location: Coastal LA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:39 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
Yes.
tnx
may reserve/delivery 4/30/11
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red SL with etec L3
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eloder
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Jan 2015

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:32 pm

cwerdna wrote: Source for the above, esp. the Smart ED? How are they determining this capacity loss?

(I don't care as much about Volt given what Tony already posted...)
To maintain the smart's battery warranty, they do require annual maintenance--as well as for the optional extended-warranty Battery Assurance Plus program, which is included on every lease. There's a print-out of their battery diagnostic you can request that includes a measurement similar to the GIDs that people use for Leaf to measure absolute energy capacity left.

The Volt info is pretty neat, I wasn't aware Chevy would tap into the dormant battery capacity to prevent degradation as seen by the end-user. I actually have no idea if a similar "trick" is used for smart.
2015 red Leaf S w/ Quick Charge
Central Ohio

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:09 am

TimLee wrote:...
When the lowest cell voltage hits 3.0 volts, the main contactor will open and you are dead in the water.
...
I let my two capacity bar loss 2011 LEAF go to contact opening yesterday and determined that it was NOT triggered by lowest cell voltage being 3.0 volts.

Turtle happened at 0.4 kWh remaining.
At turtle drive power is limited to 20 kW and HVAC is eliminated.
Blower will run off the 12V, but AC or heat will not operate.
At turtle lowest cell voltage was around 3.2 volts with cell low to high up around 240 mV.

As I watched lowest cell voltage was down to around 3.109.
But LEAF was still doing cell balancing.
The lowest cell voltage turned and improved.
It climbed back to near 3.2 volts with cell low to high improved to 192 mV.

And then the Turtle indication disappeared when it opened the contactor.
Remaining was still 0.3 kWh at that point.
Unclear to me what value it used to determine it was necessary to open the contactor.

Vehicle was parked in garage.
But it would not have driven very far with only 0.1 kWh.
I was lucky I made it into the garage when it Turtled on the hill previously 500 feet from the garage :shock:

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

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LeafSwe
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:14 am
Delivery Date: 01 Feb 2012
Location: Sweden

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:25 am

TimLee wrote:
TimLee wrote:...
When the lowest cell voltage hits 3.0 volts, the main contactor will open and you are dead in the water.
...
I let my two capacity bar loss 2011 LEAF go to contact opening yesterday and determined that it was NOT triggered by lowest cell voltage being 3.0 volts.

Turtle happened at 0.4 kWh remaining.
At turtle drive power is limited to 20 kW and HVAC is eliminated.
Blower will run off the 12V, but AC or heat will not operate.
At turtle lowest cell voltage was around 3.2 volts with cell low to high up around 240 mV.

As I watched lowest cell voltage was down to around 3.109.
But LEAF was still doing cell balancing.
The lowest cell voltage turned and improved.
It climbed back to near 3.2 volts with cell low to high improved to 192 mV.

And then the Turtle indication disappeared when it opened the contactor.
Remaining was still 0.3 kWh at that point.
Unclear to me what value it used to determine it was necessary to open the contactor.

Vehicle was parked in garage.
But it would not have driven very far with only 0.1 kWh.
I was lucky I made it into the garage when it Turtled on the hill previously 500 feet from the garage :shock:
I have tested turtle and contactor open on both 2012 and 2014 Leaf.
I can still drive the car with cell voltage average under 3,0.
Here is a snapshot at turtle just before contactor open.
2.588 2.715 2.826 (238mV)
So i think it is the cell balance that triggers turtle, not just specific voltage.

http://postimg.org/image/hwooqqbn3/

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:45 pm

LeafSwe wrote: I have tested turtle and contactor open on both 2012 and 2014 Leaf.
I can still drive the car with cell voltage average under 3,0.
Here is a snapshot at turtle just before contactor open.
2.588 2.715 2.826 (238mV)
So i think it is the cell balance that triggers turtle, not just specific voltage.

http://postimg.org/image/hwooqqbn3/
That performance on a fairly new LEAF sure is a lot different than what my 2011 with two lost capacity bars, just under 50 AHr did.

I think you are correct about cell balance being the trigger.

But cell balance was improving when the contactor opened.

2013 forward spend a lot more time balancing when nearly fully charged.
My 2011 may need some low amp 120V charging.

But my LEAF also shows eight weak cells on the CVLI test.
But they only show weak until battery imbalance gets up to around 65 mV.
After that they all show OK and never show weak as you charge back up either.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

JasonA
Posts: 584
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 10:16 am
Delivery Date: 04 May 2013
Location: Sylmar, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:27 pm

I was in turtle coming back from Tony's and had quite abit cell imbalance on the bottom end but I've seen 3 Gids :o and THEN it shut down 400 feet from the damn charger on me!

And I had to push the rest of the way.

2.9v for the lowest

Battery was 36*c and still sitting at 12.5% capacity. 303v
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