WetEV
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Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 7:18 am

aventineavenue wrote:Also: Unlike the LEAF, the Volt uses an active liquid thermal management system (TMS) that both cools and warms the battery, keeping it in a "sweet spot" of between ~45F and ~85F while in operation (discharge) or being charged. Under extreme circumstances, it may even activate while the car is parked in the heat.
The OP has that as well. It's called living in the usually cool coastal Pacific Northwest. We get plenty of cool liquid most months. Rain happens.

A TMS wouldn't help battery life at all, might even hurt it, at least in the PNW. With outside conditions cool, with a TMS, the battery will stay warmer (due to being insulated) than without a TMS. Unless you DCQC a lot, and probably other complications. This is why studies show that TMS only helps in hot climates.
BernieTx wrote:Eric Belmer from Ohio has driven his 2012 Volt Sparkie over 315k miles with over 110k miles on EV and still gets the same 35 mile EV range as when brand new.
Same 35 mile EV range? OK, but that doesn't mean the same battery capacity. That's about 3000 battery full cycles. Batteries do wear out. This can be slowed by battery design, and by thermal management, but not stopped. The interesting question is how is EB's Volt still getting the same range on a reduced battery capacity?

More efficient driving?
Reduction in the battery top and bottom margins?
Something else?
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rexki
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Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 8:31 am

Eric Balmer of Ohio - 110,000 miles EV? 4.5 years times 365 days comes to 1,643 days. Divide those days into 110,000 and that comes to 67 miles per day. Likely hood the real number of EV days would be 50 weeks times 5 days per week times 4.5 years = 1,125. This brings miles per EV day average to 98 miles/day.

The math does not add up either way even if he is charging at each end point and then that still comes to a daily average per leg of 34 - 49 miles and thus he would be hammering his full cycle count due to extremely low or negative DOD percents.

Is his battery capacity oversubscribed?
2015 Leaf SL - GMSilver - Mfg:11/14 - AV-EVSE-RS 6.6kw - 19,200 miles - 285 gids 95.38% 63.04Ahr - 4.029m/kwh - Data:1/23/16
2006 Honda CNG GX - blue - PZEV - 50 mpg
2001 Honda Odyssey EX Van - green - I rebuilt engine and trans - oily carbon mess!!

aventineavenue
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Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 9:14 am

WetEV wrote:The OP has that as well. It's called living in the usually cool coastal Pacific Northwest. We get plenty of cool liquid most months. Rain happens.
Clever answer, but not the same as a liquid TMS, that keeps the battery 45F-85F *no matter what* charging, ambient, hard driving, etc, and does is at the cell level (as the coolant path winds it way past each triplet/duplet) Blowing ambient air on a heating up battery just doesn't work the same and at some temps (over 100F?) really will do almost nothing at all except waste energy. At 120F+ internal temp, lithium cells can be permanently damaged. Also, unlike the LEAF's, the Volt's is wrapped in thermal insulation and more centrally located (and less bottom surface area) so it takes longer for any outside influence, hot or cold, to affect the battery's core temp.

So if temp was the primary culprit, maybe it was simply overcharging/low draining and/or aging.
WetEV wrote:A TMS wouldn't help battery life at all, might even hurt it, at least in the PNW.
Please do elaborate. It would seem cooling when hot and warming when cold (which the LEAF also does, but using flat pads) would only be of benefit. For example, in cool/cold weather, the pack will be most quickly evenly warmed above 40F as the coolant quickly circulates.
WetEV wrote:Same 35 mile EV range? OK, but that doesn't mean the same battery capacity. That's about 3000 battery full cycles...The interesting question is how is EB's Volt still getting the same range on a reduced battery capacity?
The Volt never does full cycles. It can't. It does 60%-70% cycle, never above ~90% and never below~15% (actual numbers depend on MY) So every "full" cycle is at most a ~2/3 cycle, in the least stressful part of the SOC (State of Charge).

aventineavenue
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Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 9:20 am

rexki wrote:The math does not add up either way even if he is charging at each end point and then that still comes to a daily average per leg of 34 - 49 miles and thus he would be hammering his full cycle count due to extremely low or negative DOD percents.

Is his battery capacity oversubscribed?
No, he has a ~220 miles round trip commute and charges full at least twice in 24 hrs (like I do). Once overnight at home, once at work. The difference from me is, he gets on the highway and and keeps driving another ~60 miles each way in hybrid mode (whereas I go on;y ~75 miles total so stay withing the AER (All Electric Range) of the vehicle.

You can't really oversubscribe the Volt battery (except by a couple percent through a few "tricks" people have learned. It's around 15% low to I think 90% max on the high end (more like 85%). So it just does;t have a "full cycle count"; every cycle is at max a !2/3 cycle, and not stressing the battery as much as going say 5% to 70%, or 35% to 100%.

aventineavenue
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Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 9:28 am

WetEV wrote:The interesting question is how is EB's Volt still getting the same range on a reduced battery capacity?

More efficient driving?
Reduction in the battery top and bottom margins?
Something else?
He drives the car the same way he did when new; mostly highway commuting during the week (where he gets the same 30-35 miles per charge, depending on season) and around local on the weekends (where he gets the same 40-45 in mild weather as when new)

If there's been any measurable degradation, it would have to be less than say around 12%, or the computer might start encroaching on the usable SOC (~9.7 max estimated for a 2012) and subsequently one would see less range with the same drive habits/[patterns, and the screen might only say like 9.0 kWh used consistently, or less. To date no one has reported such a phenomenon but we are always on the lookout for it! :)

The Volt engineers have repeatedly stated that the SOC window itself does not "open up" based on age or degradation, it simple measures and estimates the state of charge, and measures/estimates the depletion until the low point is reached where the engine comes on (and enough SOC must remain for the car to operate properly as a hybrid, with a smaller SOC window) Of course this is all trade secret, s we don't really know the guts of the code and what's going on.

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RegGuheert
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Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 10:17 am

First of all: Congratulations to TaylorSFGuy for this impressive achievement! Unfortunately, he may be the only 2011 LEAF owner to achieve 150,000 miles on the original battery.
BernieTx wrote:Eric Belmer from Ohio has driven his 2012 Volt Sparkie over 315k miles with over 110k miles on EV and still gets the same 35 mile EV range as when brand new.
Interesting case. Let's do some math:

Miles on gasoline = 315,000 miles - 110,000 miles = 205,000 miles
Total gasoline burned = 205,000 miles / 35 miles/gallon = 5,857 gallons
Overall fuel efficiency = 315,000 miles / 5,857 gallons = 54 miles/gallon

Total electricity consumed = 110,000 miles / 4.0 miles/kWh = 27,500 kWh = 27.5 MWh
Electricity cost = 27,500 kWh * 0.10 $/kWh = $2,750

Conclusions:

- Mr. Belmer could have saved ~$15,000 up front for the vehicle, $1000 up front for the EVSE, and ~$2,750 in fuel costs had he purchased a 2012 Toyota Pius instead of a Chevrolet Volt. In other words, he overpaid by over $4000/year for a vehicle with aproximately 1/2 the driving range. U.S. taxpayers subsidized some of that overage.
- Mr. Belmer's car required the manufacture of a 16-kWh battery when a car with 1/8 the battery capacity would have been a better solution.
- Mr. Balmier's car consumes enough electricity to power some homes in Ohio (in addition to the gasoline he burned, assuming the house is not heated with electricity). In other words, this car increases electricity consumption for no gain.

I'm sure there are excellent applications for a Chevy Volt, but this is not one of them.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

rexki
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Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 12:08 pm

From previous post about the Chevy Volt 110K EV miles - I would contend that Eric's electric usage attributable to the Volt has never gotten close to the 27,500 kWhs.

If it had then his battery would not be at full capacity - unless "oversubscribed" by the obvious depredation. Even at 2/3 cycle it would not be possible without over-subscription or his batteries are purely acting at 1/8 capacity as previously alluded and the kWh would be in the 4,300 - 9,000 kWh amount - truly consumed at the utility meter.

By oversubscribed I mean that GM put more than the published KW battery into the car and thus allows for cells to be degraded and have spare capacity come on-board thus giving the appearance and same EV driving range over the majority of its life. Tesla is a master of this as well and that is why they hide the battery pictures and specifications due to "over-subscription". We as the end user have not ability to impact this over-subscription that I speak of in the previous post.

I agree that this is not the ideal car for this usage model but I applaud his purchase of a Volt since he had the cash and/or credit worthiness to purchase. - strongly believe in freedom of choice and capitalism, lightly seasoned with government oversight and subsidies.

If we knock government then we all would not be on this board talking about EV's in phase 1, we would be talking about EV's in generation 8 and 40 years later (since 1976) due to the super cheap oil and gas we are addicted too on the backs of:

1 our Yellow coded air quality in Chicago today and now the majority of days.
2. our fallen US soldiers in the middle East, defending the Strait of Hormuz and it steady stream of oil tankers headed to the Gulf of Mexico.
3. A lot of white concrete roads across America built on Gasoline taxes - Yes I like highways.
4. Billions of plastic water bottles in our land fills and waterways. - I do not partake in this behavior.

Getting off soap box.

By all of us (those on this board and beyond) driving around with alternative fuel vehicles we are saying our part in the 4 items above and also your freedom of choice to your reasons you are doing your part - I applaud you all!!
2015 Leaf SL - GMSilver - Mfg:11/14 - AV-EVSE-RS 6.6kw - 19,200 miles - 285 gids 95.38% 63.04Ahr - 4.029m/kwh - Data:1/23/16
2006 Honda CNG GX - blue - PZEV - 50 mpg
2001 Honda Odyssey EX Van - green - I rebuilt engine and trans - oily carbon mess!!

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RegGuheert
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Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 1:23 pm

rexki wrote:From previous post about the Chevy Volt 110K EV miles - I would contend that Eric's electric usage attributable to the Volt has never gotten close to the 27,500 kWhs.
It's an extremely simple calculation. Here it is again:
RegGuheert wrote:Total electricity consumed = 110,000 miles / 4.0 miles/kWh = 27,500 kWh = 27.5 MWh
The ONLY assumption here is the from-the-wall efficiency, and my estimate is almost-certainly generous.

FWIW, I use the exact same assumption to calculate that our 2011 Nissan LEAF consumes 2 MWh to travel 8000 miles each year.
rexki wrote:By all of us (those on this board and beyond) driving around with alternative fuel vehicles we are saying our part in the 4 items above and also your freedom of choice to your reasons you are doing your part - I applaud you all!!
Sorry, but driving alone in a car 70,000 miles/year is not a way to say "I'm protecting the environment," or "I'm trying to stop foreign oil wars."

I've simply pointed out that Mr. Belmer would have done significantly less damage to the environment and his wallet had he chosen a 2012 Toyota Prius instead of a 2012 Chevrolet Volt.

In the case of TaylorSFGuy, I believe he chose the least-damaging vehicle in which to travel that many miles. The only way I can see to reduce that further would be to reduce the number of miles he drives.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

dwl
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Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 1:59 pm

The OP has done really well on a Gen 1. When discussing other battery types, the Gen 2 (MY2013 in US terms) can do well as shown by this taxi company in the UK where one has done over 150k miles and has only recently lost the first bar. https://mobile.twitter.com/candctaxis/s ... 9401877504
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

GRA
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Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 2:55 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
rexki wrote:From previous post about the Chevy Volt 110K EV miles - I would contend that Eric's electric usage attributable to the Volt has never gotten close to the 27,500 kWhs.
It's an extremely simple calculation. Here it is again:
RegGuheert wrote:Total electricity consumed = 110,000 miles / 4.0 miles/kWh = 27,500 kWh = 27.5 MWh
The ONLY assumption here is the from-the-wall efficiency, and my estimate is almost-certainly generous.

FWIW, I use the exact same assumption to calculate that our 2011 Nissan LEAF consumes 2 MWh to travel 8000 miles each year.
rexki wrote:By all of us (those on this board and beyond) driving around with alternative fuel vehicles we are saying our part in the 4 items above and also your freedom of choice to your reasons you are doing your part - I applaud you all!!
Sorry, but driving alone in a car 70,000 miles/year is not a way to say "I'm protecting the environment," or "I'm trying to stop foreign oil wars."

I've simply pointed out that Mr. Belmer would have done significantly less damage to the environment and his wallet had he chosen a 2012 Toyota Prius instead of a 2012 Chevrolet Volt. <snip>
While I agree with your general point, you are crediting EB's Volt with only 35 mpg. The 2011/12 Volt was credited with 37 mpg combined, and IIRR 40 mpg highway, which is where he's putting the majority of miles on the ICE. ISTR that people were getting 40+ on the highway. He could reduce his gas use even more by making smart use of hold mode. The change to an engine that burns regular gas and gets better mpg in the Volt 2 would improve the economics even more. None of which is to say that a Prius wouldn't have been cheaper all around, but then you'd have to drive a Prius with all that implies (pre-Gen 4). The best environmental approach (if that had been their main motivation) for both EB and Steve would be to move to shorten their respective commutes. And it would have also saved them many hours of their lives. Moving was something they were both unwilling/unable to do.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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