cwerdna
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:21 am

webb14leafs wrote: Nissan is absorbing a loss on every Leaf sold, while Tesla is making > 20% profit on every Model S sold. Of course there will be a difference in Service and Upgrade Policy.
LOL! With those "> 20% profit on every Model S sold", TSLA, the company, has still managed to rack up over $3.2 billion in net losses. IIRC, they've had only 2 profitable quarters since they've reported publicly. They report "earnings" in a day, which will likely be even more net losses.

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/IR/LIBR ... CIAL/2016/ has Nissan's last fiscal year numbers.

'19 Bolt Premier
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'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Jedlacks
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Leaf Number: 303628
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Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:01 am

Cwerdna, I believe I know the root of the issue. Many people are fans of Tesla, and they fill their thoughts with rumors, and these rumors will become their own facts in.... minutes! This may be because if they spent $80k - $100k+ on a car, you better not complain about ANYTHING. It is just not"civilized" to whine, so they may upload a video on YouTube and hope that Elon does not remotely brick their car.

On the other hand, Leaf owners complain about tires and battery life. The list of things that are bad on a Tesla is longer, and points to build quality.

The Leaf battery is about 1/3 the size of the Tesla's and it goes 1/3 the distance. So logically, it should last 1/3 the time. I have mentioned on a few forums my expenses with our AMG. Yes, I bought it with "Tesla money", but it can get really expensive at the dealer. For my visits I try to eat or drink $1,000 worth of free crap, and I always fail. (But when those twin turbos spool up...sigh)

To the OP, is it common practice for companies to honor a warranty outside of the time limit? If that is the case Mercedes is 10 times worse than Nissan, and please don't let me list my brother in law's BMW.
Last edited by Jedlacks on Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SageBrush
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Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:10 am

cwerdna wrote:
webb14leafs wrote: Nissan is absorbing a loss on every Leaf sold, while Tesla is making > 20% profit on every Model S sold. Of course there will be a difference in Service and Upgrade Policy.
LOL! With those "> 20% profit on every Model S sold", TSLA, the company, has still managed to rack up over $3.2 billion in net losses. IIRC, they've had only 2 profitable quarters since they've reported publicly. They report "earnings" in a day, which will likely be even more net losses.

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/IR/LIBR ... CIAL/2016/ has Nissan's last fiscal year numbers.
You are confusing profit per car and company profit. Tesla in the past year completely overhauled the Fremont car factory to support 500k production a year, built the Gigafactory, and is rapidly building out the SuperCharger network.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
Posts: 10114
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:17 am

SageBrush wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
webb14leafs wrote: Nissan is absorbing a loss on every Leaf sold, while Tesla is making > 20% profit on every Model S sold. Of course there will be a difference in Service and Upgrade Policy.
LOL! With those "> 20% profit on every Model S sold", TSLA, the company, has still managed to rack up over $3.2 billion in net losses. IIRC, they've had only 2 profitable quarters since they've reported publicly. They report "earnings" in a day, which will likely be even more net losses.

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/IR/LIBR ... CIAL/2016/ has Nissan's last fiscal year numbers.
You are confusing profit per car and company profit. Tesla in the past year completely overhauled the Fremont car factory to support 500k production a year, built the Gigafactory, and is rapidly building out the SuperCharger network.
You are confusing components of P&L (e.g. revenues and cost of automotive revenues) with capital expenditures which come from cash and only plays a minor role in cost of revenues due to capex depreciation that's spread out over time. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 96#p494496.

You can look at the SEC filing I referenced at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 44#p494244 or a more recent one. You'll see what I'm talking about once you read the explanations that I got.

This has come up at least two other times:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 25#p507325
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 59#p498759 - at least lpickup looked at what I referenced and understood

It's highly likely the Leaf also has a positive gross profit and had had one for a long time, since you'd be stripping out all the capex (except for capex depreciation), R&D and SG&A costs, just like webb14leafs's assertions about the Model S.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
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Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:36 am

cwerdna wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
cwerdna wrote: LOL! With those "> 20% profit on every Model S sold", TSLA, the company, has still managed to rack up over $3.2 billion in net losses. IIRC, they've had only 2 profitable quarters since they've reported publicly. They report "earnings" in a day, which will likely be even more net losses.

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/IR/LIBR ... CIAL/2016/ has Nissan's last fiscal year numbers.
You are confusing profit per car and company profit. Tesla in the past year completely overhauled the Fremont car factory to support 500k production a year, built the Gigafactory, and is rapidly building out the SuperCharger network.
You are confusing components of P&L (e.g. revenues and cost of automotive revenues) with capital expenditures which come from cash and only plays a minor role in cost of revenues due to capex depreciation that's spread out over time. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 96#p494496.

You can look at the SEC filing I referenced at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 44#p494244 or a more recent one. You'll see what I'm talking about once you read the explanations that I got.

This has come up at least two other times:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 25#p507325
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 59#p498759 - at least lpickup looked at what I referenced and understood
Read the original quote you responded to again. Profit per car.

Even if you are correct that P&L only takes depreciation (and presumably interest) into account, consider what it costs just in carrying charges to build out a Supercharger network, a Gigafactory, and a massive overhaul of a car factory to support 10x production.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
Posts: 10114
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Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:45 am

SageBrush wrote:consider what it costs just in carrying charges to build out a Supercharger network, a Gigafactory, and a massive overhaul of a car factory to support 10x production.
But all of that is from cash and their depreciation is spread out over time as part of cost of automotive revenues.

Per http://ir.tesla.com/secfiling.cfm?filin ... IK=1318605
Cost of automotive revenue includes direct parts, material and labor costs, manufacturing overhead, including depreciation costs of tooling and machinery, shipping and logistic costs, vehicle connectivity costs, allocations of electricity and infrastructure costs related to our Supercharger network and reserves for estimated warranty expenses. Cost of automotive revenue also includes adjustments to warranty expense and charges to write-down the carrying value of our inventory when it exceeds its estimated net realizable value and to provide for obsolete or excess inventory.
Those things I quoted aren't a big part of what's causing Tesla to be not profitable because they're already part of the ">20% profit" on each Model S webb14leafs alluded to. Interest expense is also listed in the above SEC filing.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
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Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:22 am

cwerdna wrote:
SageBrush wrote:consider what it costs just in carrying charges to build out a Supercharger network, a Gigafactory, and a massive overhaul of a car factory to support 10x production.
But all of that is from cash and their depreciation is spread out over tim1.e as part of cost of automotive revenues.

Per http://ir.tesla.com/secfiling.cfm?filin ... IK=1318605
Cost of automotive revenue includes direct parts, material and labor costs, manufacturing overhead, including depreciation costs of tooling and machinery, shipping and logistic costs, vehicle connectivity costs, allocations of electricity and infrastructure costs related to our Supercharger network and reserves for estimated warranty expenses. Cost of automotive revenue also includes adjustments to warranty expense and charges to write-down the carrying value of our inventory when it exceeds its estimated net realizable value and to provide for obsolete or excess inventory.
Those things I quoted aren't a big part of what's causing Tesla to be not profitable because they're already part of the ">20% profit" on each Model S webb14leafs alluded to. Interest expense is also listed in the above SEC filing.
If you quote specifics from the filing, we will at least be talking about the same thing. E.g.,

Total Automotive revenue: 2.289B
Total Automotive Cost of revenues: 1.662B

That works out to ~ 37% margin on cars. If and when Tesla sells 500k cars a year their filing is going to look golden.... until they take their mountain of cash and build more factories.
Last edited by SageBrush on Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
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Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:25 am

Back on-topic:
="topaz420"
What a bummer. There is obviously something amiss with these early-model Leafs. I had only 34,000 miles and 10 days out of warranty...
AVTA testing showed 2011-12 LEAFs had defective packs (under 24 kWh capacity) on delivery.

The class action settlement (I opted out) only compensated those LEAF owners who drove atypically high miles per year.
="topaz420"

You'd think that this is the exact type of loyal customer to whom you would extend a helping hand, but after speaking to multiple representatives, their reply was simply that a faceless board has decided that this is over. No offer of a 90/10 or 80/20 split (as others have received in the past), no appeal, no human that I can speak to...
You might want to try BBB, next.

My LEAF still has 9 bars (~43.5 Ahr) after ~56 k miles, but it will not be able to reliably make my usual up-to ~60 mile trip to town, ending with a ~1,500 foot hill climb, at any reasonable speed, with a reasonable reserve, by the time below-freezing temperatures arrive this Winter.

I was content to let Nissan replace the pack after the dash display got to 8 bars, but now see no reason to wait, and opened a case with the BBB this morning.

Hopefully, this may allow a discussion with a person who is not limited to the script given the operators at Nissan's 800 number.

If not, on to arbitration, lawsuit? Hard to believe Nissan would allow that to happen, but who knows.
="topaz420"
I am in Los Angeles and my effective range is now about 40 miles. I can't even make it to downtown and back...
Are you using the entire pack?

Over one-third of my LEAF's actual kWh capacity is now below the LBW, and it should still cover close to 60 ~level miles at (right lane) freeway speed, under moderate temperatures, by using the whole pack.
="mxp"
If possible, try working through a reputable dealership/service advisor advocate...
Good advice, but FYI, both my local service advicor, and the GM of my servicing dealer were very cooperative with me, but both say all theier contacts indicate complete termination of all LEAF pack goodwill programs.
no condition is permanent

SageBrush
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Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:56 am

edatoakrun wrote: I was content to let Nissan replace the pack after the dash display got to 8 bars,
Why would they, since you opted out of the warranty ?

I'll be amazed if Nissan does not just laugh in your face and then walk away.
Your story is a good synopsis coming from one of the last standing fans of this car and company:
50k miles and 6 years, then car unable to provide year round service for 60 miles between charges.

Sounds about par for the course of this car.
Last edited by SageBrush on Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SeasonsAfter
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:25 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Feb 2015

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:32 pm

Can you please share your leaf spy numbers on the leaf that dropped the 4th bar 10 days after the warranty expired? I'd like to compare with my numbers to ensure this doesn't happen to me. I might be too late but the mileage of your leaf is similar to mine. I have 4 months to ensure I receive a new battery.

my leaf's numbers, any suggestions or comments would be most helpful. Thanks for all the great responses on this board!

2013 Leaf
manufacture date 1/2013
in service date 2/21/2013
AHr 46.94
SOH 71%
Hx 65.09%
33k on ODO
204 GIDs on full charge
2013 Leaf
9 of 12 bars remaining (waiting for that 4th bar drop)
manufacture date 1/2013
in service date 2/21/2013
AHr 44.83 (all updated 2/1/2018)
SOH 68%
Hx 61.85%
35k on ODO
194 GIDs on full charge

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