cwleaf2
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:52 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2018

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:02 pm

OrientExpress wrote:I've got an '18 LEAF SL this week, and tried some quick charges with it yesterday, here is the second QC I did which ran for 35 minutes. It did not seem any different from how my 2014 charges at this QC.

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On Thursday we will be driving it from Monterey to South Lake Tahoe and back. That will be the real test I think.
Hello, did you check your battery temperature when starting the quick charges?

P.S.: Nice color! Nissan doesn't offer this colour here in Europe.

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OrientExpress
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:08 pm

Hello, did you check your battery temperature when starting the quick charges?
Yeah for that one it was left of center.

Today I did the first of my 18 LEAF tests with a RT from south San Jose to Monterey and back. It was a total of 128 miles RT and I had 17% stated reserve or 31 Miles left at the end. I L2 charged last night for about 4 hours to get to 100%. Temp was left of midrange when I started. The road course was highway @65, Canyon and hilly twisties, @45, Highway 1 @ 55, and city driving @35. When I finished the Battery Temp was mid range.

I did do one thing different than I normally do when I drive this road, I kept to the posed speed limits, much to the chagrin of my fellow drivers! I did find that I could outdrive them on the twisties using e-Pedal to modulate speed and the Vehicle Dynamic Control for the turns. The only other car I had driven with VDC was a 911, and it really helps carving into the curves.

Observations of the 18 LEAF in general:
This was my first time spending extended time with the car since the Las Vegas product reveal, and my overall impressions were good. ProPilot is great, much better than the competing systems from Toyota, VW, and GM. Better logic for seeing and reacting to things ahead. Ride is smooth and firm, seats are comfortable, cabin climate and the Apple play are good. Only thing I noticed is the cabin picks up a lot of tire and some wind noise. No rattles so far.

I QC'd at the Drive the Arc L3 by my house, and ran it for 45 minutes. It started out at 100A (35.5kW), at 30 minutes I was at 98A (34.79 kW), and when I finished at 45 minutes I was down to 62A (22.01kW).

Battery Temp when I finished was right of center mid-way. Went from 17% to 86%. I'll L2 it up to 100% tonight.

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So far nothing observed out of the unusual compared to every other LEAF I've QC'd (and I have done every model year since 2011)

Wednesday will be the important test, when I continue the trip from San Jose to South Lake Tahoe. This will have more interstate, and of course big elevation gains on Highway 50. Nice thing about 50 is that it is mostly 2 lane, and drivers aren't in a hurry. We expect that trip including Charge stops should be about 7 hours vs 5.5~6 hours if we drive and stop for lunch.
Last edited by OrientExpress on Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

borugee
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:06 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Mar 2018
Location: Dallas TX

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:30 pm

cwleaf2 wrote: Thanks for your rapid charging graph! This is exactly the same problem as we saw on your LEAF 2.0 in Europe.

Here are the numbers from Bjørn's 600 mile yesterday in Norway:

Second charge:
T1: 32,0º T2: 29,7º T3: 22,5º SOC: 16,1% Charge: 42.6 kW
T1: 40,4º T2: 38,9º T3: 30,6º SOC: 42,4% Charge: 44.4 kW
T1: 44,0º T2: 42,6º T3: 34,1º SOC: 54,3% Charge: 45.0 kW
T1: 47,9º T2: 46,6º T3: 37,9º SOC: 68,5% Charge: 36.2 kW
T1: 48,3º T2: 47,0º T3: 38,4º SOC: 70,8% Charge: 34.3 kW

Third charge:
T1: 45,4º T2: 41,8º T3: 32,6º SOC: 48,7% Charge: 22.1 kW
T1: 46,6º T2: 42,7º T3: 33,3º SOC: 56,1% Charge: 21.1 kW

Later charge:
T1: 41,0º T2: 34,4º T3: 23,5º SOC: 34,9% Charge: 25.9 kW
T1: 44,4º T2: 37,7º T3: 26,6º SOC: 54,7% Charge: 26.1 kW
T1: 46,0º T2: 39,2º T3: 28,5º SOC: 64,4% Charge: 26.0 kW

Latest charge:
T1: 37,1º T2: 29,6º T3: 18,4º SOC: 15,1% Charge: 30.9 kW
T1: 42,9º T2: 36,2º T3: 25,7º SOC: 52,2% Charge: 29.7 kW
T1: 44,4º T2: 37,8º T3: 27,6º SOC: 60,9% Charge: 29.2 kW

Last charge:
T1: 39,6º T2: 32,7º T3: 22,2º SOC: 21,8% Charge: 26.1 kW
T1: 42,3º T2: 35,3º T3: 24,8º SOC: 48,0% Charge: 26.4 kW
T1: 44,3º T2: 37,3º T3: 26,7º SOC: 59,2% Charge: 27.0 kW
This also show that T1 / T2 / T3 battery banks cooling is not similar. They are vastly different. T1 bank Do not seem to cool down, while T3 - Seems to cool down quickly. May be the location of the battery. Is T3-battery bank better ventilated?
Borugee
2018 SL ; 03/18 Delivery ; Dallas TX ; @10k Mile ; SOH=94.83,AHr=109.47,Hx=109.12

LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:02 pm

OrientExpress, can you post your charge rates in KW instead of amps? That would allow instant comparisons to what other drivers are seeing.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

lorenfb
Posts: 2426
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:34 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:OrientExpress, can you post your charge rates in KW instead of amps? That would allow instant comparisons to what other drivers are seeing.
Just multiply Volts X Amps shown on the charger screen to get kW, i.e. (38, 34, 25, 23, 12, 8 kW). The voltage in all cases is essentially
constant
at about 390 volts, except when the QC is delivering 100 amps and the output voltage drops a little. Data used from here;

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 47#p523610
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
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Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:51 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:OrientExpress, can you post your charge rates in KW instead of amps? That would allow instant comparisons to what other drivers are seeing.
If you cannot multiply by 0.4 you have bigger problems than being lazy.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

lorenfb
Posts: 2426
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:36 pm

There's been essentially no discussion or focus of what's causing the Leaf2 battery to increase in temp more rapidly than early batteries.
Yes, most obviously it's the chemistry and potentially the battery's thermal resistance to ambient. But specifically what measurable
battery parameter has a changed, causing the higher rate of change of battery temperature. The most obvious and easiest to
determine is the battery's internal resistance, where battery power consumption and heating is I^2 (charging current squared)
times the battery's internal resistance. This can be determined easily, as has been expressed numerous times on the forum.
So if it turns out that this Leaf2 battery has a higher internal resistance, e.g. from chemistry change, that would help example the greater
rate of change of Leaf2's temperature while charging. Additional tests could easily be developed to the determine if the thermal
resistance of the Leaf2 battery may have changed too, further contributing to the battery's higher remaining temp after multiple QCs.

After about eight pages of posts about the reduction of charging current during multiple successive charging sessions and the correlation
with the battery temperature with the Leaf2 battery, isn't time to now to try and understand what the cause/causes might be?
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

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LTLFTcomposite
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Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:51 pm

lorenfb wrote: After about eight pages of posts about the reduction of charging current during multiple successive charging sessions and the correlation with the battery temperature with the Leaf2 battery, isn't time to now to try and understand what the cause/causes might be?
Isn't that Nissan's job?
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

lorenfb
Posts: 2426
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:17 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
lorenfb wrote: After about eight pages of posts about the reduction of charging current during multiple successive charging sessions and the correlation with the battery temperature with the Leaf2 battery, isn't time to now to try and understand what the cause/causes might be?
Isn't that Nissan's job?
Yes it is, but it may help to further understand the evolution of the Leaf batteries from a more technical aspect. Besides, if the battery
resistance is causing heat problems while charging, additional heat from driving will also be problematic.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

LeftieBiker
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Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:13 pm

Just multiply Volts X Amps shown on the charger screen to get kW, i.e. (38, 34, 25, 23, 12, 8 kW). The voltage in all cases is essentially
constant at about 390 volts, except when the QC is delivering 100 amps and the output voltage drops a little.
Yes, and I know. I don't want to do that for every charging screen I see.

What is different about the 40kwh Leaf? Higher energy density, apparently from larger cells squashed into a space that used to have a little airflow inside to aid the modest convection cooling. As other car companies ensure that their packs are actively cooled, Nissan is going in the exact opposite direct - making sure that their packs get cooled as little as possible. The only reason I'm likely to lease a 2018 Leaf, aside from the lack of direct competition, is that I believe I can fit it in my garage, and then cool the garage during heat waves. But that doesn't mean I'm not pissed off about it, or that I'm sure I'm not making a big mistake.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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