LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:25 am

I can also delete that last post if you like. I deleted our earlier ones.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:14 am

cwerdna wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
Lothsahn wrote:Nearly 40% of 2012 Teslas have had the drive unit replaced?
Very few failures. The motors were replaced due to noise and only in the context of other-worldly customer support by Tesla.
Besides, it was first year model, small numbers were made, and it was resolved quickly.
If you had a car
Thanks for the anecdotes.

Why don't you post anecdotes of LEAFs that lose battery capacity at crazy rates.
That should keep you busy.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13201
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:07 pm

The above post isn't useful.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

User avatar
SalisburySam
Gold Member
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 24 Feb 2012
Leaf Number: 018156
Location: Salisbury, NC

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:48 pm

I’m beginning to wonder how desirable a non-warranty replacement battery will actually be for a 2011-2012-early2013 LEAF. I’ve signed up with Fenix Power for a battery replacement/subscription if/when their product becomes viable, but there has been little progress and the latest news on their website is dated October 2018. At some point as an original 2012 owner, I’m probably going to say the vehicle just isn’t worth the cost regardless of how much I like the car. Even with a new 24kwhr battery, I’ll still only get 70+ miles, far better financially to get a 2015 at the same price or so for the around-town runabout. But I really, really like my electronic parking brake so what do I do?

As time passes, I think my better options are to either keep the car as is until it just dies, or take whatever Carvana or other dealer will give me as a trade...I think a private sale could happen but not likely with far better options available. Even Tesla will generally meet a Carmax offer on a trade.

At this point, I’m pretty bummed about the LEAF. It was such an amazing experience in early 2012 with decent commuter abilities, solid comfort, and low maintenance requirements. As time and battery depreciation rapidly happened but not rapidly enough to take advantage of the capacity warranty, the vehicle became less and less amazing. Then in 2018 a spark of hope with 3rd parties making waves about alternate battery options. And as the time continues without a real delivered solution, disappointment creeps back in.

So after all this introspection, I have a few outcomes:
1- the EV is only recently and only with some EVs an ICE replacement vehicle. I’m thrilled that I can own a Tesla Model 3 which did indeed replace an ICE for me.
2- my LEAF ownership gave me insights into a far better (at least for me) way of driving, with different expectations and greater awareness of just how hard any massive conversion to EVs will really be. It also showed me that just because you are manufacturing an EV doesn’t remotely mean you can design a navigation system.
3- I fault Nissan for not providing any sort of capacity warranty with the interim exception of the 5-year one for early LEAFs. Many ICE vehicles have a 100,000-mile or better powertrain warranty and the battery IS the powertrain engine-equivalent in an EV.
4- I feel Tesla has done a bit of a disservice in focusing more on their self-driving technology and less on the pure goodness of being an outstanding electric car. With their superior range and minimal capacity degradation, that’s a wonderful story to tell, and the technology stuff is just add on. My Model 3 is in every way the very best most exciting car I’ve owned or driven, even without the tech tricks.
5- traditional ICE manufacturer’s dealerships really do not want to deal with EVs. We’ve had not a single Bolt come through locally since they’ve been in production, and the number of local Volts is very very small and now of course discontinued. Want an iPace? Good luck, and either order it or go to Atlanta. Want an eTron? Pretty much the same. Same for the other EVs. The wave of buyers seeing the light and migrating in droves to EVs in only a couple of years (from 2012) just did not happen. The Model 3 is the first spike in EV ownership, and I hope it continues to stimulate EVs as I think will. Rivian is an unknown potential with its $0.5billion investment from Ford but could be incredible. Or not.
6- maybe the biggest bang for the buck will be in commercial fleets with the Tesla Semi. So many trucking carriers and companies have these on order (each requiring a $50,000 deposit) primarily for reduced operating costs that trucking may just be the real growth arena for EVs. I hope so. Individual EV car sales are still a small portion of overall, and electric busses are almost a rounding error with very very slow growth.

Back to the topic, I question the viability of a battery replacement at almost any cost above a few thousand dollars for a 2011-2013 vintage car. Just doesn’t seem to work.
Nissan 2012 LEAF SL, 13,500 miles, 9 bars, 70.4% SOH, 46.19 Ahr

Tesla Model 3: Long Range Rear Wheel Drive | Extended AutoPilot | Full Self-Driving
Delivered: July, 2018 | 11,000 miles
Get 1000 miles free Supercharging: https://ts.la/john70942

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:40 pm

SalisburySam wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:48 pm
Back to the topic, I question the viability of a battery replacement at almost any cost above a few thousand dollars for a 2011-2013 vintage car. Just doesn’t seem to work.
-
My take is different. I figure that any car that costs me less than $150 a month for amortized purchase, repairs, maintenance, insurance and fuel is a bargain.

When our LEAF is no longer usable we will become a single car family with our Tesla Model 3 and that will be fine. If we actually needed a commuter to go along with the Tesla I would be OK spending $6,000 for a battery replacement if I thought the car was otherwise in excellent condition and the battery good for 5 years of use. After all, that is $100 a month with some room for repairs and maintenance.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Lothsahn
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:08 pm

SalisburySam wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:48 pm
I’m beginning to wonder how desirable a non-warranty replacement battery will actually be for a 2011-2012-early2013 LEAF. I’ve signed up with Fenix Power for a battery replacement/subscription if/when their product becomes viable, but there has been little progress and the latest news on their website is dated October 2018. At some point as an original 2012 owner, I’m probably going to say the vehicle just isn’t worth the cost regardless of how much I like the car. Even with a new 24kwhr battery, I’ll still only get 70+ miles, far better financially to get a 2015 at the same price or so for the around-town runabout. But I really, really like my electronic parking brake so what do I do?
I really disagree. I think there's a lot of demand for a 60 mile range Leaf. Assuming Fenix is able to bring the battery to market, a guaranteed 80%+ SOH battery gives a permanent 60 mile range, forever, on their subscription. That means it will be a very useful second car for a lot of families and never go bad. The monthly cost of the battery roughly covers the gas savings in a lot of locales, and half the gas savings in others. So for cheapskates like me, there's no cheaper car to own, plus all the benefits of an EV.

If I still don't have you convinced, Fenix is hoping to release a 30kWh battery. If that happens, it will change everything.

I still assert that if Nissan had done nothing other than offer 40kWh batteries as replacement for all model Leafs, at cost, they would not be dealing with the customer ill will they have. A 40 kWh battery in a 2011 Leaf would be an incredibly good car, heat pump or no. The problem isn't the car, or the age. The problem is that 24kWh is extremely small for modern EVs in the US.

I still assert, as a reservation holder, that Fenix is extremely high risk and unlikely to pan out. This is a very difficult business and technical problem, and we've heard very little updates from them in the last few months. So I think the biggest problem with Fenix isn't that the product would be useful for 2011/2012 owners, but instead that it won't ever graduate from vaporware status.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:31 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:08 pm
I still assert, as a reservation holder, that Fenix is extremely high risk and unlikely to pan out.
To put it mildly.


Quoting the fenix:
Our guiding principle behind our engineering and design is that we believe the battery is NOT a component of the car, but rather a part of the fuel.
And by the way, vapor has a price
Buy your Batteries: $1,500 installation, approximately $6,000 for the battery modules, and a reasonable monthly service plan.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2257
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:28 am

I would not do a "subscription" unless it was significantly cheaper or higher capacity than a battery I could buy. If Nissan would offer a 30 kWh or larger battery (with same warranty as new car batteries of that size) for my car, I would probably buy one. I most likely will not buy a replacement 24 kWh battery with only 60,000-mile capacity warranty at current prices because it makes more sense to buy a new car, take the tax credit again, and have a longer range car with a 100,000-mile battery warranty.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL+ purchased 8/10/2019

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:53 am

^^ Yep

When NIssan raised 24 kWh battery price to $8,500 installed it was a polite way of Nissan saying "we do not want to sell a replacement battery for the LEAF."

I hope they change their mind
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Lothsahn
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:14 pm

GerryAZ wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:28 am
I most likely will not buy a replacement 24 kWh battery with only 60,000-mile capacity warranty at current prices because it makes more sense to buy a new car, take the tax credit again, and have a longer range car with a 100,000-mile battery warranty.
Gerry, what would your out of pocket be for a new Leaf? Looks like ~$24k in my area... Is it a lot lower there?
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

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