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Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 11:16 pm
by GerryAZ
goldbrick wrote:
Oilpan4 wrote:We know nissan can do it they just chose not to.
Oilpan4 wrote:I know engineers they like to over build everything if it was up to them.
Nissan's strategy seems to be analogous to the Porsche designed air-cooled ICE engines. KISS. Even if it doesn't work everywhere it is simple, cheap and in the right application (ie climate) it is great solution. Personally, I hope they figure out how to make their batteries last 'long enough' without a TMS. I'd rather have a simpler car even if it it can't charge at 100kW.
+1

As a field engineer who grew up on a farm and works in the power industry seeing how simple vs. complex equipment (with lots of extra features) works long term, I agree there are advantages to the KISS (keep it simp!e ...) principle. FWIW, I have owned several motorcycles while living in AZ and the one that consistently runs the highest oil temperature is the water cooled one. Air cooling with oil cooler is best and air cooling only is second best. Water cooling with electric fan is best only if stopped in traffic on a hot day for extended time (and then the heat from the radiator and fan is really uncomfortable on my right leg).

I really hope some good options for replacement batteries with increased capacity become available either from Nissan or aftermarket suppliers.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:51 am
by SalisburySam
GerryAZ wrote: Nissan's strategy seems to be analogous to the Porsche designed air-cooled ICE engines. KISS. Even if it doesn't work everywhere it is simple, cheap and in the right application (ie climate) it is great solution. Personally, I hope they figure out how to make their batteries last 'long enough' without a TMS. I'd rather have a simpler car even if it it can't charge at 100kW.
+1

I agree there are advantages to the KISS principle.[/quote]

I agree as well to KISS in general, but there are other, for me, overriding concerns. In 2012 I paid a total of about $40K for a vehicle that was touted by Nissan as a 100-mile car. Yeah, I know, that was a lie, but that’s how it was aggressively marketed. Today, that 100-mile vehicle is a 40-mile vehicle, but shockingly I haven’t received any rebate from Nissan to compensate for this crippling of the vehicle over time. Imagine the outcry if people buying an ICEV saw their range decrease from whatever distance a full tank got them when new to 40% of that in ownership year 7. The only analogy I can come up with is an ICEV in which the gas tank decreased in volume over time requiring more and more frequent fuel stops. I’m guessing the lawsuits would be legion, the demand for Federal legislation mind-blowing, and we’d see the death of manufacturer after manufacturer, and if allowed to continue, a swell of 3rd-party fuel tank manufacturers delivering quick, reasonably-priced, and easy tank replacements.

If you buy into the premise that a car, any car, is to get you somewhere in whatever degree of performance and luxury you want to pay for, the LEAF early editions failed fairly spectacularly. To their credit Nissan has improved their KISS batteries over time and I do recognize I was an early adopter subject to the woes that adjective means in delivered products.

I for one hope (and it is truly only a hope from what I’ve seen or not seen so far) that Fenix or someone else can resurrect otherwise terrific vehicles overcoming the seemingly simple but certainly devastating ever-shrinking gas tank in the LEAF EVs. I think this is an example where KISS was perhaps too simple.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:42 am
by GerryAZ
SalisburySam,
Actually, I was quoting goldbrick and agreeing.

Regarding capacity loss and expectations, both 2011 and 2015 purchases had Nissan disclosure forms that I had to sign so I assume 2012 also had that form as part of the multiple signature process to purchase the new car. The form for my 2015 listed the EPA range estimates in miles as 84 for 2015, 83 for 2014, 75 for 2013, and 73 for 2012. The form also includes disclosures about capacity loss over time so I doubt there would be much chance for a legal case against Nissan. The window sticker also shows the EPA range.

I have over 78,000 miles on the 2015 and still routinely drive 40 to 50 miles every charge cycle.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:57 pm
by DougWantsALeaf
Agreed, that though my 2013 is down a bar, it still does a careful 80 miles per charge in the summer. Knowing we were early (though not super early) adopters, I am still within my purchase expectations of how fast the battery has been degrading.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 4:47 pm
by Marktm
JohnBysinger wrote: We expect to use that address through the next year or so as we grow and our office and manufacturing needs grow with us.

-John Bysinger
CEO of Fenix Power
John;
Any updates? Do you have a high-level program schedule of major milestones that you can tell us? Nothing confidential, but for our information?

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:24 pm
by UBUYGAS
Oilpan4 wrote:Have these guys actually built anything yet?

Cause late 2019 isn't enough time to build such a battery. Unless say you're Tesla so you already know how to build batteries with liquid cooling, you have unlimited money and manpower.
The Company has been preparing and building for years. From Day 1 I've been told the end of 2019 for my install.

That has not changed.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:51 pm
by Oilpan4
Building what exactly?

If I going to hire a contractor to do something I want to know what their other work looks like before money changes hands.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:52 am
by Goodbar
Just stumbled on this thread and chugged my way through the whole thing. While I'm naturally skeptical, seems like some folks are going pretty harshly on this guy. Give him a chance to deliver a product, would ya? Looks like late 2019 was the target.

That said, I do have some concerns. One of which is fire safety. A Li-Ion pack can be dangerous — as y'all know — if not managed correctly (BMS) or suffers from mechanical damage. We trust Nissan and other big OEMs to have done adequate due diligence and safety testing. Can Fenix afford to do that? It sounds like they are making some significant changes to the pack in order to use cylindrical cells and integrate TMS. I don't find the verbiage in the FAQ to be convincing:
https://fenix.systems/faq#Leaf

My broader question is the size of the market. The Leaf was the first mainstream BEV in the US. While I can see that some 1st-gen owners might find value in extending the life of their cars, many will want to get a 2nd-gen Leaf or competing EV due to significantly improved range and other factors. And the whole bit about paying a subscription fee and getting modules swapped out? Part of the reason I got an EV was to lessen maintenance, be it DIY or trips to the shop. I get the appeal of keeping the pack refreshed with new(er) modules, but not sure this is a compelling model.

Interested to see how this unfolds.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:14 pm
by DaveinOlyWA
Goodbar wrote:Just stumbled on this thread and chugged my way through the whole thing. While I'm naturally skeptical, seems like some folks are going pretty harshly on this guy. Give him a chance to deliver a product, would ya? Looks like late 2019 was the target.

That said, I do have some concerns. One of which is fire safety. A Li-Ion pack can be dangerous — as y'all know — if not managed correctly (BMS) or suffers from mechanical damage. We trust Nissan and other big OEMs to have done adequate due diligence and safety testing. Can Fenix afford to do that? It sounds like they are making some significant changes to the pack in order to use cylindrical cells and integrate TMS. I don't find the verbiage in the FAQ to be convincing:
https://fenix.systems/faq#Leaf

My broader question is the size of the market. The Leaf was the first mainstream BEV in the US. While I can see that some 1st-gen owners might find value in extending the life of their cars, many will want to get a 2nd-gen Leaf or competing EV due to significantly improved range and other factors. And the whole bit about paying a subscription fee and getting modules swapped out? Part of the reason I got an EV was to lessen maintenance, be it DIY or trips to the shop. I get the appeal of keeping the pack refreshed with new(er) modules, but not sure this is a compelling model.

Interested to see how this unfolds.
Might want to go to the Fenix site. IIRC, a lot of the existing structure including Nissan battery casing will be used. Obviously details will be scant due to NDA concerns until release.

At first I was wondering if there was enough low range EVs to make a viable business but its looking like 40 kwh packs might be joining in as well...

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:12 pm
by Goodbar
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Goodbar wrote:Just stumbled on this thread and chugged my way through the whole thing. While I'm naturally skeptical, seems like some folks are going pretty harshly on this guy. Give him a chance to deliver a product, would ya? Looks like late 2019 was the target.

That said, I do have some concerns. One of which is fire safety. A Li-Ion pack can be dangerous — as y'all know — if not managed correctly (BMS) or suffers from mechanical damage. We trust Nissan and other big OEMs to have done adequate due diligence and safety testing. Can Fenix afford to do that? It sounds like they are making some significant changes to the pack in order to use cylindrical cells and integrate TMS. I don't find the verbiage in the FAQ to be convincing:
https://fenix.systems/faq#Leaf

My broader question is the size of the market. The Leaf was the first mainstream BEV in the US. While I can see that some 1st-gen owners might find value in extending the life of their cars, many will want to get a 2nd-gen Leaf or competing EV due to significantly improved range and other factors. And the whole bit about paying a subscription fee and getting modules swapped out? Part of the reason I got an EV was to lessen maintenance, be it DIY or trips to the shop. I get the appeal of keeping the pack refreshed with new(er) modules, but not sure this is a compelling model.

Interested to see how this unfolds.
Might want to go to the Fenix site. IIRC, a lot of the existing structure including Nissan battery casing will be used. Obviously details will be scant due to NDA concerns until release.

At first I was wondering if there was enough low range EVs to make a viable business but its looking like 40 kwh packs might be joining in as well...
What I read suggests that the Nissan case is not being used, hence my concern about mechanical damage (accident, road hazard):
Are you replacing the battery pack case?
Our battery solution will use it’s own hardware. Our design does not use a large all-enclosing case but rather a framework and modules that install within it that will be installed in the place of the stock battery pack case. Our case will have the ability to access and replace modules without first removing the entire pack. It is our goal to make battery servicing fast and simple, so you do not need to worry about the expense of removal and installation of a very heavy component to simply swap a battery module.
That's leaving aside the issue of appropriate BMS parameters while driving and DC charging, in particular.