Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 1039
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:30 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:23 am
Oilpan4 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:26 pm
The mechanic is going to need a pallet jack or forklift to get that battery out and back in. My Toyota 4,400lb pallet jack shouldn't have any trouble and I plan to invent a pack dolly that goes on a pallet jack.

Most mechanics won't drop a fuel tank that's full of fuel in most cars and fuel tank isn't even that heavy compaored to a leaf battery.

My budget all in, to get a very totalled 62kwh car, to include selling my cherry 12bar 2011 pack, selling all the 2019 cars parts that aren't wrecked and hauling the picked clean 2019 carcass to the scrap yatd should be well under $3,500.
Can you break that cost analysis down?
Buy a wrecked car for around 6 to 8 thousand.
Sell my cherry 12 bar soh 2011 battery. I'll probably list it on eBay buy it now for $4,500 then drop the price $200 to $500 every few weeks till it sells.
Should clear $3,000 on that easy.
From the wreck hopefully I can sell the interior and pocket $1,000, mostly from the seats.
Up to $1,000 for the doors if all 4 are intact, but it could be $0, if the doors are crunched then the car will be that much cheaper.
A $1,000 for the tires, unless I like them and keep them. Then I sell my old 2011 wheels but I only get 400 to $500 for those.
Suspension, brakes, rotors and under side bits that aren't wrecked, $500.
And that pretty much pays for the car and I haven't even sold the motor, transmission, inverter.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

johnlocke
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:57 pm

Fenix Power is getting closer to the finish line but they don't have a deliverable product yet. Right now the supposed product will be either a 24 or 30 KWH battery, your choice. That doesn't help me. If I replace my battery, I need at least 40KWH and 45 or 50 KWH would be better. A 40KWH that stays a 40KWH would give me enough range to meet my needs but a little more wouldn't hurt. Right now My 30 KWH battery is down to 25 KWH and needs to be charged daily to cover my 55 mile commute. Also I have to charge as soon as I get home just in case I I need to make a second trip later. Even a trip to the grocery store burns up 6 or 7 KWH. Sometimes living in the country sucks like when you forget that gallon of milk you were supposed to pick up or you have to go pick up the kids. When I got the Leaf, I really thought that a 100 mi range was going to be adequate and that even 20 KWH would work. I was wrong. I can drive the car with a 20 KWh battery but I have to charge out in town two or three times a week. Extra errands kill me. Either I get a bigger battery for this car or just buy a new car with better range and all the new tech. A lot depends on Fenix power's pricing. If the new battery costs 10K installed that's a no-go. I'd rather put 10K toward a new car.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

cwerdna
Posts: 9985
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:56 am

nlspace wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:09 am
Sniffing CAN buss data is not the same as reverse engineering the LBC and the VCM. i've seen no evidence that any level of reverse engineering has been done for the Leaf other than some inverter boards on the diy forum.

Reverse engineering means you have the circuit schematics and the controller firmware, and can troubleshoot, repair or modify either of these as needed for your purposes.

Ask user coulomb about this, he is a world class expert.
Turbo3 did some analysis of the LBC (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17470). I was thinking about this last night and if Fenix is going to be installing their own replacement pack, they'll either need to have reverse engineered the LBC enough to come up with their own LBC to spoof all the data and responses the VCM expects.

Or, they'll need to use an existing LBC but have something else the spoofs all the responses and voltages the LBC expects. This is in addition to managing their own cells.
nlspace wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:05 am
What is the level of knowledge, skills, abilities and experience of Fenix Power with respect to the design, management and control of packs built up of small cylindrical cells in parallel?

Who is going to design and build the circuit boards necessary for monitoring the cells and control of the pack?

And how is this new pack going to be integrated with the current operating system of the Leaf?
Yep on all of this. Good question.

As has already been mentioned, there are all sorts of potential safety concerns just from the cells sitting idle, charging and discharging, esp. overcharge conditions, cell failure, overheating, etc. What if the pack quits or the software/firmware running on their BMS gets into a bad state while charging or while the car's being driven?

GM has a massive battery lab: https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/new ... y-lab.html and I'm sure lots of engineers who know what they're doing. What sort of testing is Fenix going to be able to do beyond simple static tests and some tests involving driving and charging?

I could see major liability issues coming up if there were an accident due to pack or software failure or li-ion fire or thermal runaway. And, there are liability concerns if a Leaf gets into a severe accident with one of these packs.

How does the supposed thermal management integrate with the existing AC system and radiator?

I'm concerned that the management at Fenix is almost like a bunch of Kickstarter guys trying to come up with a hardware device but have no EE or embedded systems knowledge nor any knowledge of manufacturing or sufficient knowledge of bringing hardware from 0 to finished product. Basically, "what? we need to test for this? We need to pay someone to do that? Who knew it cost this much for tooling for molds?" If they had a proven track record of designing battery packs and BMSes for automotive applications along w/extensive knowledge of CAN (for example), then I'd feel more comfortable.

They seem to have ideas but given the lack of demonstrated progress (e.g. demos), I question their ability to execute and have something even shippable to paying customers that's safe by the end of 2020. I wonder if it can happen by the end of 2021. They need to train other installers and at least write documentation on how to troubleshoot and effect repairs if customers hit problems. This has to happen while someone manages them swapping worn Leaf packs with genuine Nissan ones in better shape.

The task isn't impossible but there's the question of the cost to achieve it, funding, expertise (if it's not in house now, they need to hire and pay them), timeframe, whether the business model is sustainable and whether there's sufficient real demand. Will they be done so late that there won't be sufficient demand? We've seen how little old degraded Leafs are worth and the march forward in EV evolution.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14384
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:18 am

^^^^^^^^^^^^

To add; Fenix did mention that they are currently ready to install "LEAF" packs into cars while providing the same capacity guarantee. That requires nearly nothing to achieve. So this would be nothing more than any good shop could do. Whether they are better in grabbing good packs from wrecked cars or not, we shall see.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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