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Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:14 am
by tattoogunman
joeriv wrote:Terrific concept and I hope it succeeds. However, what happens if after 2-3 years they go bankrupt?
I'd assume you get to keep the battery for better or worse - I would imagine it would be difficult for them to go out and try to round up all the batteries from people.

That said - for Fenix, how do you plan on installing these packs nationwide? I had read where you plan on supporting all 50 states, so how would you do installation? Contract with third party vendors or install centers?

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:41 am
by JohnBysinger
Nubo wrote:
JohnBysinger wrote:...As mentioned by others, there's no such thing as a cell that doesn't degrade, so between service events, there will be some minor loss, but we expect that it will never exceed a single bar on the GOM....

...if a percent number is what you're looking for in this answer, we don't expect the pack as a whole to ever get to 5% loss, and will likely at most get to 3-4%.
Those are 2 vastly different representations. The first bar drops around 15% and the second is after 21% loss. So what are you aming at, 5% or 21%?

I'm certainly willing evaluate the product once it's finalized but the last decade of EV watching has taught me that press releases don't mean much. Good luck!
We're aiming for 5%, but if for some reason more than one module disables itself, you may see a single bar drop on the GOM. But under normal circumstances you should never see a bar lost.
tattoogunman wrote:
joeriv wrote:Terrific concept and I hope it succeeds. However, what happens if after 2-3 years they go bankrupt?
I'd assume you get to keep the battery for better or worse - I would imagine it would be difficult for them to go out and try to round up all the batteries from people.

That said - for Fenix, how do you plan on installing these packs nationwide? I had read where you plan on supporting all 50 states, so how would you do installation? Contract with third party vendors or install centers?
As confident as we are about our success, we do have a plan for customers if something happens down the road. This is two-fold. First, our modules will be using commodity cells, and are designed to be rebuildable. Without us, a skilled EV servicing business could repair them, and possibly a technically and mechanically inclined customer could. The monitoring portion is largely passive, a module out of communication from us will still function as needed for the car.

For servicing, we're talking to both dedicated EV businesses and national automotive repair chains that will likely lose business as ICE use drops and EV adoption grows. Contracts aren't in place yet but think companies like Midas, AAMCO, etc. At launch, we will have a partner in each major metro area where we have customers, with the goal of having at least 2 different servicers to give customers choice.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:46 am
by JohnBysinger
As confident as we are about our success, we do have a plan for customers if something happens down the road. This is two-fold.
I forgot the second half to that! As we take in stock Nissan packs, we will be storing a percentage of them as well. When they come in we'll inspect them, and may be refurbishing them, to store for customers who wish to remove our system or move it to a different car. For example if you wanted to sell your leaf without the service, you could opt for swapping the stock pack back in. Note there will be a service fee for this, which will be similar to the installation fee, and will largely cover the cost of freight/shipping and the hours of work for our installation partner. The goal here is, when we install in your car, the pack will be rated/scored, and any pack we return to you will be as good or better than the one we removed.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:34 am
by webeleafowners
Talking to a few other leaf owners, a couple of them felt a 12 or 15 KWh addition in the trunk would interest them as they love their leafs but would like an extra 60 km of range. Curious if Fenix has considered this market.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:05 pm
by tattoogunman
JohnBysinger wrote:
Nubo wrote:
JohnBysinger wrote:...As mentioned by others, there's no such thing as a cell that doesn't degrade, so between service events, there will be some minor loss, but we expect that it will never exceed a single bar on the GOM....

...if a percent number is what you're looking for in this answer, we don't expect the pack as a whole to ever get to 5% loss, and will likely at most get to 3-4%.
Those are 2 vastly different representations. The first bar drops around 15% and the second is after 21% loss. So what are you aming at, 5% or 21%?

I'm certainly willing evaluate the product once it's finalized but the last decade of EV watching has taught me that press releases don't mean much. Good luck!
We're aiming for 5%, but if for some reason more than one module disables itself, you may see a single bar drop on the GOM. But under normal circumstances you should never see a bar lost.
tattoogunman wrote:
joeriv wrote:Terrific concept and I hope it succeeds. However, what happens if after 2-3 years they go bankrupt?
I'd assume you get to keep the battery for better or worse - I would imagine it would be difficult for them to go out and try to round up all the batteries from people.

That said - for Fenix, how do you plan on installing these packs nationwide? I had read where you plan on supporting all 50 states, so how would you do installation? Contract with third party vendors or install centers?
As confident as we are about our success, we do have a plan for customers if something happens down the road. This is two-fold. First, our modules will be using commodity cells, and are designed to be rebuildable. Without us, a skilled EV servicing business could repair them, and possibly a technically and mechanically inclined customer could. The monitoring portion is largely passive, a module out of communication from us will still function as needed for the car.

For servicing, we're talking to both dedicated EV businesses and national automotive repair chains that will likely lose business as ICE use drops and EV adoption grows. Contracts aren't in place yet but think companies like Midas, AAMCO, etc. At launch, we will have a partner in each major metro area where we have customers, with the goal of having at least 2 different servicers to give customers choice.
Thank you, I had thought contracting out with existing national businesses would be a good way to go.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:30 pm
by Nubo
JohnBysinger wrote:We're aiming for 5%, but if for some reason more than one module disables itself, you may see a single bar drop on the GOM. But under normal circumstances you should never see a bar lost.
Thanks for explaining!

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:09 am
by webb14leafs
I don't see how this business model would attract long term investors. It relies on packs without active thermal management systems. Degradation on packs WITH active management is far too low for this type of model to make sense. With that said, your market is limited maybe a couple hundred thousand nissan leaf owners. This market will ONLY shrink in the future as ALL EVs adopt active management systems, or solid state batteries.

Maybe this model makes more sense for residential and grid scale energy storage, but I certainly would not invest in it.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:20 am
by tattoogunman
webb14leafs wrote:I don't see how this business model would attract long term investors. It relies on packs without active thermal management systems. Degradation on packs WITH active management is far too low for this type of model to make sense. With that said, your market is limited maybe a couple hundred thousand nissan leaf owners. This market will ONLY shrink in the future as ALL EVs adopt active management systems, or solid state batteries.

Maybe this model makes more sense for residential and grid scale energy storage, but I certainly would not invest in it.
As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:55 am
by WetEV
webb14leafs wrote:Degradation on packs WITH active management is far too low for this type of model to make sense.
Err, no.

Active management is only a gain in the hottest sections of the USA. Some early EVs with thermal management show fairly high rates of loss... even in cool climates were LEAFs do fairly well.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:06 am
by webb14leafs
WetEV wrote:
webb14leafs wrote:Degradation on packs WITH active management is far too low for this type of model to make sense.
Err, no.

Active management is only a gain in the hottest sections of the USA. Some early EVs with thermal management show fairly high rates of loss... even in cool climates were LEAFs do fairly well.
Still limited to "early EVs", of which the LEAF dominates in the US market.

Will have to see how new EVs (kona, niro, etc.) perform.