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Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:42 am
by davewill
tattoogunman wrote: As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.
It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:19 am
by powersurge
webb14leafs wrote:I don't see how this business model would attract long term investors. It relies on packs without active thermal management systems. Degradation on packs WITH active management is far too low for this type of model to make sense. With that said, your market is limited maybe a couple hundred thousand nissan leaf owners. This market will ONLY shrink in the future as ALL EVs adopt active management systems, or solid state batteries.

Maybe this model makes more sense for residential and grid scale energy storage, but I certainly would not invest in it.
This guy certainly likes to ruffle feathers... He was probably thrown out of the Tesla forum.. His continued poo pooing of non-active cooling batteries is tiring and old... The benefit of this thread is to keep our (according to him) obsolete "non-cooled" Leafs on the road long-term...

I probably would not invest in this business, but I would welcome this service nationwide for all cars with batteries in them...

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:58 am
by webb14leafs
powersurge wrote:
webb14leafs wrote:I don't see how this business model would attract long term investors. It relies on packs without active thermal management systems. Degradation on packs WITH active management is far too low for this type of model to make sense. With that said, your market is limited maybe a couple hundred thousand nissan leaf owners. This market will ONLY shrink in the future as ALL EVs adopt active management systems, or solid state batteries.

Maybe this model makes more sense for residential and grid scale energy storage, but I certainly would not invest in it.
This guy certainly likes to ruffle feathers... He was probably thrown out of the Tesla forum.. His continued poo pooing of non-active cooling batteries is tiring and old... The benefit of this thread is to keep our (according to him) obsolete "non-cooled" Leafs on the road long-term...

I probably would not invest in this business, but I would welcome this service nationwide for all cars with batteries in them...
I don't intend to ruffle feathers.

I own a 2014 Nissan Leaf, currently with ~80% SOH. I'm a prospective customer. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I also never said my car or my battery was obsolete. I'm saying that at some point in the future, they will be.

As someone who's interested in the service, I'm putting thought into the likelihood of the company staying around long enough for me to get my moneys worth.

It just seems like too much of a niche market to sustain itself. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:03 am
by webb14leafs
davewill wrote:
tattoogunman wrote: As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.
It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.
I agree 100%. I'm just considering whether this is a sustainable business that won't go bankrupt 2 years after I pay a deposit.

Just want to point out that their market is small and will decrease over time. Cars only last so long, and eventually it won't make sense to pay $150/month to maintain a battery in a car that's falling apart. Could be a viable business in the mean time, but I'm skeptical.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:16 pm
by tattoogunman
davewill wrote:
tattoogunman wrote: As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.
It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.
I'm inclined to agree as I'm still looking at the possibility of getting a used Leaf. A used Leaf seems to be about the only way I'll ever be able to enter the EV world since I cannot afford any new EV and many of the other EV models are still relatively expensive for me. I can find a used Leaf in my area for under $10K easy and if I could get a replacement pack at an affordable price, that would sweeten the deal obviously.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:21 pm
by tattoogunman
davewill wrote:
tattoogunman wrote: As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.
It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.
I agree, but there will come a time when those used Leafs stop getting circulated among dealers or they are not sent out to auction anymore due to their age, mileage, etc. Right now it's not so much a problem since the vast majority of the used Leafs I see for sale have very low miles, but eventually they just wouldn't be viable used cars to sell at dealerships anymore. Like I've said before, I'm still considering a used Leaf and it's only because I cannot afford any other EV new or used. If I could get a deal on a replacement battery (from Fenix or Nissan), that would obviously make it all the better.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:19 am
by webb14leafs
tattoogunman wrote:
davewill wrote:
tattoogunman wrote: As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.
It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.
I'm inclined to agree as I'm still looking at the possibility of getting a used Leaf. A used Leaf seems to be about the only way I'll ever be able to enter the EV world since I cannot afford any new EV and many of the other EV models are still relatively expensive for me. I can find a used Leaf in my area for under $10K easy and if I could get a replacement pack at an affordable price, that would sweeten the deal obviously.
I highly recommend getting a used leaf. For the right situation, such as daily commuting of 50 miles or less, it's a fantastic car at an unbelievably low price. My car will easily provide enough utility for the 5 years of the loan. Once its capacity is down to 40% or so I'll have to make a decision on what to do with it. That's why I'm questioning this model. Will I want to pay a $1500 deposit PLUS some monthly payment that will cost around $7K over 5 years for an 8 year old car that I originally paid $10K for, or will I want to pay ~$15K for another used car with better battery technology, more range, more interior features...

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:36 am
by davewill
webb14leafs wrote: I highly recommend getting a used leaf. For the right situation, such as daily commuting of 50 miles or less, it's a fantastic car at an unbelievably low price. My car will easily provide enough utility for the 5 years of the loan. Once its capacity is down to 40% or so I'll have to make a decision on what to do with it. That's why I'm questioning this model. Will I want to pay a $1500 deposit PLUS some monthly payment that will cost around $7K over 5 years for an 8 year old car that I originally paid $10K for, or will I want to pay ~$15K for another used car with better battery technology, more range, more interior features...
That's why I think they HAVE to get larger packs going. If you could end up with a 30 or 40kWh car for that $1500 plus payment, that would make a huge difference in the value calculation (if not for you, then for whoever you unload it to for $2-4k). I truly see no reason why they can't, I think they're just being cautious with making promises.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:09 pm
by tattoogunman
webb14leafs wrote:
tattoogunman wrote:
davewill wrote:
It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.
I'm inclined to agree as I'm still looking at the possibility of getting a used Leaf. A used Leaf seems to be about the only way I'll ever be able to enter the EV world since I cannot afford any new EV and many of the other EV models are still relatively expensive for me. I can find a used Leaf in my area for under $10K easy and if I could get a replacement pack at an affordable price, that would sweeten the deal obviously.
I highly recommend getting a used leaf. For the right situation, such as daily commuting of 50 miles or less, it's a fantastic car at an unbelievably low price. My car will easily provide enough utility for the 5 years of the loan. Once its capacity is down to 40% or so I'll have to make a decision on what to do with it. That's why I'm questioning this model. Will I want to pay a $1500 deposit PLUS some monthly payment that will cost around $7K over 5 years for an 8 year old car that I originally paid $10K for, or will I want to pay ~$15K for another used car with better battery technology, more range, more interior features...
I drive less than 25 miles on any given day, but here has been my biggest issue - I already drive a very economical car (Fiat 500 that I've had for five years) and I easily get anywhere from 34mpg to close to 40mpg in the city depending on my driving (36-38 is the average). I have attempted to buy an EV before (Leaf and Volt). On both occasions, my insurance alone was going to go up enough that it negated any fuel savings I was going to have. I'm at a point now where my insurance rate is better and I would probably end up with a better car payment, so a Leaf would save me some money in the short term (long term is another issue obviously).

I am looking at a 2015 S with around 40K miles on it, so it still has the degradation warranty in place for a bit longer and it is showing full capacity in the pictures posted online (and yes I am aware that doesn't mean a whole lot). I am planning on checking it out in person on Saturday and will run Leaf Spy on it to try and get an idea how good or bad the state of health is on the battery.

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:10 pm
by JohnBysinger
webeleafowners wrote:Talking to a few other leaf owners, a couple of them felt a 12 or 15 KWh addition in the trunk would interest them as they love their leafs but would like an extra 60 km of range. Curious if Fenix has considered this market.
Yes, we do have plans for a variety of expansion methods, including the use of trunk and under-trunk space. We're starting with pack replacement, and then growing the products and solutions from there. Earlier in the evolution of the business we investigated doing only a trunk expansion product but have found that to get the most benefit, replacing the stock pack first, then working on expansion made more sense as we would be able to replace the stock BMS entirely, easing the expansion possibilities. To try to make expansion work in concert with the stock pack has it's own challenges.