How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

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jlsoaz

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
849
Location
Southern Arizona, USA
Hi -

Nissan's decision not to include liquid cooling with the 2019 Leaf E-Plus has thrown a wrench into my planning for a future vehicle, and so I am here to ask others for their views and knowledge they may have accumulated, as I have not been able to follow Leaf matters as closely as I would have liked since moving on to a Volt.

I have been planning to buy a 5-year-old or so electric vehicle that has a long-range battery (at least 50 kWh, but probably 60 or 70 or so) where the manufacturer's battery preservation decisions and battery warranty support have been documented in the marketplace to have led to a vehicle that still has an impressive amount of its range left on it, and some reasonable expectation of many miles left to drive ahead of it, when I finance the purchase... probably something around $16 or $18k to drive off the lot (not taking into account trade-ins, down payments, etc.) Having already gone through Leaf passively-air-cooled battery degradation here in Arizona, and having followed a small number of the comments over the years as to battery replacements, while I'm somewhat open to the idea that Nissan and its battery suppliers might have really found improved solutions, I cannot help but be very skeptical that any solutions short of liquid cooling or a radical battery chemistry known to have extraordinary properties (Toshiba?) is really the answer for the heat and punishment of driving here. So, I will be able to consider buying a used longer-range BEV with liquid cooling (I may be mistaken about some of these, but as far as I know so far) such as:

Chevy Bolt
Tesla Model 3
Tesla Model S, X
Jaguar i-Pace
Hyundai Kona Electric

a few others, I guess, that may be introduced around 2019 at the latest. I'd rather not wait past 2022-2024, so this puts the Bolt and the used Teslas kind of at the front. Yes, there are all sorts of other considerations (such as I'm not a big fan of the looks of the Bolt, and the costs, possible difficulties and possible frequency of various Tesla repairs), and looking for "liquid cooling" is just a rule of thumb, but I thought I'd ask. And, when it finally does come to the time to trade in my Volt, I may need a "beggars can't be choosers" mentality, and so I am prioritizing that, if nothing else, I get a battery that seems to be in reasonably good shape, or has the promise of a very affordable replacement.

Does anyone here really think the non-liquid active air cooling (I guess it will have?) on the Leaf e-plus, along with whatever battery chemistry and pack architecture and bms updates have been done over the years, will really do the trick and help preserve vehicle range (and related vehicle value) to a point that is comparable with the degradation curves of Teslas and other longer-range BEVs in hot climates? I took a quick look to see if I could create a poll, but I didn't seem to be able to, and it's been awhile since I posted here, and my quick look through the forum probably doesn't cover all the threads that might exist, so, in any event, here is my question.
 
jlsoaz said:
I have been planning to buy a 5-year-old or so electric vehicle that has a long-range battery (at least 50 kWh, but probably 60 or 70 or so) where the manufacturer's battery preservation decisions and battery warranty support have been documented in the marketplace to have led to a vehicle that still has an impressive amount of its range left on it, and some reasonable expectation of many miles left to drive ahead of it, when I finance the purchase... probably something around $16 or $18k to drive off the lot (not taking into account trade-ins, down payments, etc.)
...
So, I will be able to consider buying a used longer-range BEV with liquid cooling (I may be mistaken about some of these, but as far as I know so far) such as:

Chevy Bolt
Tesla Model 3
Tesla Model S, X
Jaguar i-Pace
Hyundai Kona Electric

a few others, I guess, that may be introduced around 2019 at the latest. I'd rather not wait past 2022-2024, so this puts the Bolt and the used Teslas kind of at the front.
Your post is a bit confusing. You want a BEV w/liquid battery cooling and you want a used one? It needs to be $18K or less? And, it needs to have 50+ kWh of capacity? And, you plan wait until such a vehicle becomes 5+ years old? Am I right?

Only the Model S would be past the 5+ year mark at this point. Model X 1st delivery appears to have been end of Sept 2015 and that vehicle is a reliability disaster (https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/10-least-reliable-cars/ https://web.archive.org/web/20171130145045/https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability/10-least-reliable-cars/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170104063419/https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability/10-least-reliable-cars/). So, if $ is your concern, I sure wouldn't want to own a money pit that's out of warranty.

You can see what Tesla's selling used S for at https://www.tesla.com/inventory/used/ms, as an example.

Before buying my Bolt, I looked for used ones and so far the deals are terrible on them. One is better off buying new. I've read claims that GM was only doing 3 year leases and that car began shipping Dec 2016. So, perhaps we'll start seeing lease returns on the market once we pass the 3 year mark?

You can see how much new Bolts are being openly advertised for at https://www.chevroletoffremont.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=new&make=Chevrolet&model=Bolt%20EV&sort=salePrice%7Casc. I bought from here. Subtract $7500 if you have sufficient tax liability to claim the entire tax credit. Tax credit on GM EVs/PHEVs falls to $3750 on April 1, 2019 and the dates are listed at https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev-electric-car (search for tax credit).
 
If you live in a really hot climate I would avoid the leaf from the reports that I read.

For us in Canada I don’t think it makes much difference if it has active cooling. I also think (and there are probably many who will disagree) that having passive cooling can have some advantages. Simpler, less maintenance, less vampire drain.

Not an expert. I wouldn’t hesitate to get another leaf when the time comes (next year). We were originally planning on a model 3 Tesla next year to replace our smart ED. But Tesla has not enabled Chademo or CCS for North American Model 3’s and in our province that means having to have a second gas vehicle to get to the areas that don’t have Supercharger access but are well covered by CCS and Chademo. At this point a Leaf EPlus us in our future.
 
cwerdna said:
Your post is a bit confusing. You want a BEV w/liquid battery cooling and you want a used one? It needs to be $18K or less? And, it needs to have 50+ kWh of capacity? And, you plan wait until such a vehicle becomes 5+ years old? Am I right?
[...]

Yes, you have it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention that it is confusing the way I put it. It may help for me to clarify that I am not planning anything this year or next. Probably I will be able to put these plans into action sometime around 2021-2025, depending on this or that.

I should clarify that nothing in this sort of "I'd like to buy" conversation is set in stone, but I will likely not be buying until my price and range requirements are met. The used age is just a guesstimate of some minimum amount of time it will take before some of the better vehicles come into my price and other ranges, and it brings home to readers accustomed to new car buying discussions that I am serious about buying something well-used. Part of the reason for this is that I *really* do not like suffering the depreciation on a new or nearly-new car.

Thanks for your points about avoiding money pits, that is also helpful.

As to the model S 60 and up, which has been out there since 2012, and the prices we see on them, my thought has been that once there is a more plentiful supply of Model 3 for purchase, along with the others, (new and used Bolt, new Kona, etc.) then the somewhat extraordinarily high pricing on the used early Model S's may correct downward.
 
SageBrush said:
For AZ this is a really easy question: Avoid the LEAF.

Thanks SageBrush, I couldn't agree more. I went through the degradation on a 2012 Leaf here, and this was documented at the link that is available in my sig, which I'll re-post here:

http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/vehicle.php?vid=229

During those years, it was a bit teeth-gritting to convey to Nissan some points about what some of us wanted to see in battery size and battery cooling. Here we are in 2019 and, about 8 years after the Leaf introduction on the US markets, and Nissan has finally listened as to offering a battery size I can really use without having to suffer the costs of maintaining a second (gasoline) vehicle. However, for some reason, they are holding out in their belief that it was not necessary to install liquid cooling with the battery. I really hope they are right. I guess we'll know within a few short years (if not sooner) if this strategy is working out in Arizona... we'll see whether the e-Plus vehicles deployed in Arizona have respectable battery degradation curves or not.
 
jlsoaz said:
As to the model S 60 and up, which has been out there since 2012, and the prices we see on them, my thought has been that once there is a more plentiful supply of Model 3 for purchase, along with the others, (new and used Bolt, new Kona, etc.) then the somewhat extraordinarily high pricing on the used early Model S's may correct downward.
Hard to say on the S. Tesla keeps playing w/prices on their vehicles. At one point, Tesla discontinued the 75 kWh S which made the S start at $94K (https://electrek.co/2019/01/09/tesla-discontinuing-75-kwh-battery-pack-model-s-model-x/).

Now they're shipping a 100 kWh S that's software limited and that starts at $85K (https://www.tesla.com/models/design#battery) + $1200 destination and doc fee.

Remember, the S (40 kWh) was originally "under $50K" after $7500 Federal tax credit.

For an S to get down to $18K might mean that it's going to be very old and/or really high mileage.

The chances of used Bolts getting down to $18K are a lot better w/o the vehicle being really old or high mileage.
 
^^ I agree, used Bolts or Model 3 can be in OP's future. Off-hand I'd guess the Bolt gets there at least a year earlier. Not mine though ;)
I hope my Model 3 is the last car I buy.
 
cwerdna said:
[...]
For an S to get down to $18K might mean that it's going to be very old and/or really high mileage.

I sort of agree, but I still have a thought that, on part of this, there is some open question.

- On the one hand, I think it's only natural if a car started out life as a $70-$100k vehicle that it take more years and more miles to get down to $18k or so than it takes for a vehicle which starts out life at $45k. With that being said, if I look here, at BMW 7 series from 2013 (i.e.: a vehicle more or less comparable in new price and large luxury sedan market segment), then it is clear that, among gasoline cars, the schedule is kind of that by 2019, a decent-condition 2013 model can now be had for under $20k.

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?mdId=20532&mdId=20539&mdId=35346517&mdId=20534&mdId=20536&mdId=20538&mdId=20625&mdId=56187&mdId=49923&mdId=35923&mdId=36294682&mkId=20005&page=1&perPage=20&rd=99999&searchSource=SORT&shippable-dealers-checkbox=true&showMore=false&sort=price-lowest&yrId=47272&zc=85648&localVehicles=false

This also applies to large luxury sedans from other good-reputation manufacturers whose MSRP in 2013 was in that same ballpark.

- So, I think the question becomes: are 2013 or so used Model S vehicles still coming in very high in price because (or partly because) of the lack of choices in the new vehicle market for quality 200+ mile range BEVs? Or, even when there is a more plentiful supply of models and vehicles of that type, will the Model S still hold its value better than comparable gasoline vehicles because maybe, in the case of some or many BEVs, the market is signaling that the old depreciation schedules don't necessarily apply, at least if the BEV is of a certain type.

I don't know the answer to this question, but I do think that at least a significant part of the reasons for the delay in the drop of the used Model S price floor has been that there has been an insufficient supply of both models and vehicles. GM has IMO not been trying as hard as it possibly could to build and supply Bolts, and anyway the Bolt does not offer the looks and some of the tech that the Model 3 does. The i-Pace has taken a very long time to show up in limited supply and is priced as a high end luxury vehicle. The other choices are, to this day, not choices at all in the new market - there is, as yet, no 60+ kWh Nissan or Hyundai or Kia or what-have-you that I can go buy today, though maybe very soon. EVen then, if you don't live near one of the favored locations, you will have to try harder on some of these things (example: the Chevy dealer closest to me does not carry the Bolt). So, my working hypothesis has been that when there is really an improvement in longer-range choices for people who are able to consider buying a vehicle at $30k-$50k, then, finally, the used Model S prices may start to come down somewhat, though it's hard to say if they'll really come down to tracking the used prices in the other comparable gasoline vehicles.

cwerdna said:
The chances of used Bolts getting down to $18K are a lot better w/o the vehicle being really old or high mileage.

Yes, agree. I have assumed for about a year now that a used Bolt around 2021-2023 was likely for me. A reason I have recently cooled a little bit to this idea is that the Volt I have been driving is so styling (in my opinion) that I have become somewhat more reluctant to settle for a more pedestrian vehicle style. But, I have awhile to think about it.
 
jlsoaz said:
- So, I think the question becomes: are 2013 or so used Model S vehicles still coming in very high in price because (or partly because) of the lack of choices in the new vehicle market for quality 200+ mile range BEVs? Or, even when there is a more plentiful supply of models and vehicles of that type, will the Model S still hold its value better than comparable gasoline vehicles because maybe, in the case of some or many BEVs, the market is signaling that the old depreciation schedules don't necessarily apply, at least if the BEV is of a certain type.

I don't know the answer to this question, but I do think that at least a significant part of the reasons for the delay in the drop of the used Model S price floor has been that there has been an insufficient supply of both models and vehicles.
Unclear. Perhaps a Tesla fan can chime in or you can ask/poke around over at "TMC". (I've been taking a hiatus from there for months and am now sometimes lurking while logged out. No time to participate and deal w/the attitudes there.)

Maybe part of it is that they were getting returned at end of lease and Tesla controls so much of the used supply and they price them high? And, others are just trading them in because buyers just have too much $ and don't really care that much that the trade in price might not be that good?

There's also https://ev-cpo.com/ which I believe is run by a guy on TMC and on TiVocommunity.
jlsoaz said:
GM has IMO not been trying as hard as it possibly could to build and supply Bolts, and anyway the Bolt does not offer the looks and some of the tech that the Model 3 does.
On the first part, yep. :/ https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/company_info/facilities/assembly/orion.html is where Bolt is built and is only running a single shift. In comparison, if you poke around their SUV and truck plants (look at assembly plants at https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/plants-facilities.html), they seem to running 3 shifts.

Yeah, a guy in Frackville, PA on TCF mentions his local Chevy dealer that he's been going to for 32 years doesn't carry Bolt. When he first asked in 2017, they said he was the 1st one to ask about it.

In comparison, high volume dealers in my area have 100+ Bolts in stock (at least per dealer pages). https://www.chevroletoffremont.com/VehicleSearchResults?model=Bolt%20EV has allegedly over 200 in stock.

Agree on the latter point but at the same time, Model 3 lacks some tech like an equivalent of "Around View Monitor" (aka Surround Vision in GM parlance). And, there are numerous other missing features. If you have issues w/"phone as key", apparently, the optional fob (https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/product/vehicle-accessories/model-3-key-fob.html) doesn't support passive entry. :shock:
 
cwerdna said:
[...]
Yeah, a guy in Frackville, PA on TCF mentions his local Chevy dealer that he's been going to for 32 years doesn't carry Bolt. When he first asked in 2017, they said he was the 1st one to ask about it.

In comparison, high volume dealers in my area have 100+ Bolts in stock (at least per dealer pages). https://www.chevroletoffremont.com/VehicleSearchResults?model=Bolt%20EV has allegedly over 200 in stock.
Are you in California? A main point here is that outside of California and some other states, the pickings are slimmer.

cwerdna said:
Agree on the latter point but at the same time, Model 3 lacks some tech like an equivalent of "Around View Monitor" (aka Surround Vision in GM parlance). And, there are numerous other missing features. If you have issues w/"phone as key", apparently, the optional fob (https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/product/vehicle-accessories/model-3-key-fob.html) doesn't support passive entry. :shock:

I did not make my point very well since in reality the Bolt may be very competitive with the Tesla in tech, but I guess in the end, Tesla managed to make something that competes for customer dollars with a BMW 3 series and Chevy managed to make something that competes for customer dollars with .... what... ? The Elantra? The Versa?

-------------

Notwithstanding all this back and forth, the main point I want to make is that I am already disappointed with Nissan that it took 8 years to get a vehicle with something on the order of 200+ EPA miles (even 150+ epa miles would have been nice) for sale - I didn't and don't care about the price, .... as long as someone could buy the vehicle, then eventually a person could buy it used. Now that we are about to see the 200+ mile vehicle, a question becomes whether there will be additional disappointment to come if the battery does not hold up and the value of the used vehicles does not hold up.
 
Yes, I'm in California. Due to CA ZEV regulations, we have lots of EV and PHEV choices here. :)
jlsoaz said:
I did not make my point very well since in reality the Bolt may be very competitive with the Tesla in tech, but I guess in the end, Tesla managed to make something that competes for customer dollars with a BMW 3 series...
All while losing over $5 billion (net of their profits and losses) and racking up over $10 billion in debt.

What I said years ago at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=463875#p463875 still holds true today.
jlsoaz said:
Chevy managed to make something that competes for customer dollars with .... what... ? The Elantra? The Versa?
Well, per https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/, it looks like in the US in 2018, Bolt was the highest selling non-Tesla BEV, so it probably competed against other BEVs and PHEVs in its price range.
jlsoaz said:
Notwithstanding all this back and forth, the main point I want to make is that I am already disappointed with Nissan that it took 8 years to get a vehicle with something on the order of 200+ EPA miles (even 150+ epa miles would have been nice) for sale...
I too am disappointed that Nissan is so late to the game here. 238 mile EPA rated Bolt shipped in Dec 2016. Nissan didn't even ship the 151 mile EPA-range 40 kWh Leaf until 1Q 2018 in the US and of course, we're still waiting for the e+ in the US.

However, looking at https://insideevs.com/bolt-ev-baojun-e100-gm-plug-in-sales-2018/ vs. https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/01/20190122-leaf.html, US Leaf sales in 2018 at https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/, Japan (https://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-sales-japan-increased-2018/) and other places, perhaps Nissan played its cards right vs. GM, globally...

Perhaps Nissan doesn't actually care that much about EVs in the US and are hoping for what they can get via attrition (Tesla could still implode, GM could drop out, etc.)
 
If you live in a warm climate, avoid the Leaf. Since your timeframe is so far in the future, you should have more choices in 3-4 years but based on your wish list, a used Model 3 looks like it. It's the only car in truly mass production except for the Leaf. With high volume production, the Model 3 will need to turn to leasing to keep up demand. An off-lease Model 3 could be cheap enough for your requirements. The only other car likely to meet your cost requirement is A Kona Electric. Their reliability is an open question and will be a low volume car in any case.

A model Y could be an option if it's production is on schedule. It should be cost optimised and it's production line highly automated leaving higher margins and the possibility of better pricing. Also the planned volume is even higher than the Model 3. It could end up the $35K car that Musk has promised for so long.
 
johnlocke said:
A model Y could be an option if it's production is on schedule. It should be cost optimised and it's production line highly automated leaving higher margins and the possibility of better pricing. Also the planned volume is even higher than the Model 3. It could end up the $35K car that Musk has promised for so long.
I doubt it since the CdA will be ~ 50% higher and the battery size proportionally larger. That is another $5k in batteries at todays prices.
 
johnlocke said:
If you live in a warm climate, avoid the Leaf.

For a somewhat less fuzzy discussion of where active cooling would help, see:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=27677#p547072

The OP is in a place where active cooling would increase battery life by a lot.
 
I want to add to my colleague's recommendation to avoid the LEAF, by adding avoid the 2014 and earlier LEAFs. Later ones are much more robust and heat tolerant. Nissan has continued to improve its battery's reliability and heat tolerance over the last ten years, and the issue is much less of a problem that it was initially. With that said, 2019 will most likely be the last year of the LEAF based on Nissan's B platform and the passive managed battery. They are ramping up the next generation BEV specific platform that will support many Nissan and Infiniti vehicles most likely starting in 2020.

I would also comment that your situation may make it difficult to find any BEV especially a used one that will meet your needs. I say that because you live in a very hot area, and your needs for a low priced long range vehicle may severely limit your options.

But with that said, 2020 will usher in many new players in the BEV market that will be offering vehicles that will draw from the experience of BEVs in the last ten years. I expect that there will be several BEV offering that will be under $30K and have 200+ miles of range. We may see one announced and available in the next several weeks.

Nissan's strategy to use passively managed traction batteries came from many factors of which technology was only one. Globally, the LEAF has sold very well, and it still holds the title of the best selling BEV of all time. That has mitigated the impact of edge-case degradation issues that have primarily manifest themselves in the southwestern portions of the US.

Another factor in their decision to continue with passive batteries was their substantial investment in the manufacture of their battery modules. Initially, that was a decision driven on their desire to have a beachhead in the sale of BEVs earlier in the decade. At that time no one was manufacturing BEV specific modules in any volume, so it was a make or buy decision. That combined with the later desire to divest and outsource the supply of traction batteries and the difficulty in doing so is the main reason that the passive cells are still in use today. With the rollout of a new BEV modular platform soon, and finally being able to successfully divest the battery business will give them an opportunity to move to a new architecture and may usher in an active battery management strategy.
 
OrientExpress said:
I want to add to my colleague's recommendation to avoid the LEAF, by adding avoid the 2014 and earlier LEAFs. Later ones are much more robust and heat tolerant.

Yes, but Phoenix cars still will have a substantial advantage from active cooling, which the LEAF does not have. Add Lake Havasu City, AZ, Palm Springs, CA, Bullhead City, AZ, ... All of the very hot places.

Elsewhere, the advantage is small (Orlando, FL) to nothing.
 
Yes certainly for the older cars, but the results aren't really in for the newer LEAFs. Regardless the Southwest is still an edge case for heat related durability for just about every electrical device.
 
OrientExpress said:
I want to add to my colleague's recommendation to avoid the LEAF, by adding avoid the 2014 and earlier LEAFs. Later ones are much more robust and heat tolerant. Nissan has continued to improve its battery's reliability and heat tolerance over the last ten years, and the issue is much less of a problem that it was initially.

I think what I will need when I go to buy a used affordable-to-me 200+ mile EPA BEV (I guess I'll settle for 150+ EPA miles if I get to a point where I feel I have to) will be some very strong assurance, based on real evidence, that the batteries are holding up. For example, if the Plug In America Leaf Survey charts indicate that degradation in the A/C actively-air-cooled Nissan e-plus Leafs compares reasonably well to liquid-cooled competitors.

(just posting this for the relevant headline info, haven't watched it yet):

The 2019 Nissan Leaf e-Plus Will Get Air-Conditioned Battery Cooling, Not Liquid Cooling
23,710 views
Transport Evolved
Published on Dec 5, 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnNGmessn0I

Other points from me here:

- I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but is there a reason that some folks in discussion sometimes aren't making more of a distinction when they speak of various models as to whether "active cooling" is from fans blowing ambient air, A/C, liquid cooling or something else?

- Maybe it's a bit of tech distraction, but I wonder if and to what extent it has been looked into to try cooling based on some sort of thermoelectric effect.

OrientExpress said:
With that said, 2019 will most likely be the last year of the LEAF based on Nissan's B platform and the passive managed battery. They are ramping up the next generation BEV specific platform that will support many Nissan and Infiniti vehicles most likely starting in 2020.

I would also comment that your situation may make it difficult to find any BEV especially a used one that will meet your needs. I say that because you live in a very hot area, and your needs for a low priced long range vehicle may severely limit your options.


But with that said, 2020 will usher in many new players in the BEV market that will be offering vehicles that will draw from the experience of BEVs in the last ten years. I expect that there will be several BEV offering that will be under $30K and have 200+ miles of range. We may see one announced and available in the next several weeks.

What interests me will be a vehicle that, has these characteristics:

$15k or $20k on the used market,
originally 200+ EPA miles
there is excellent reason to believe that the battery will hold up for many more miles and years with a respectable percentage of its original rating.
transparent and reasonably affordable battery replacement terms issued by the manufacturer, when the time comes.
generally considered a quality vehicle overall without any make-or-break nasty faults that would preclude my buying it (such as if the electric motor is known to need replacement every couple of years).

OrientExpress said:
Nissan's strategy to use passively managed traction batteries came from many factors of which technology was only one. Globally, the LEAF has sold very well, and it still holds the title of the best selling BEV of all time. That has mitigated the impact of edge-case degradation issues that have primarily manifest themselves in the southwestern portions of the US.

Another factor in their decision to continue with passive batteries was their substantial investment in the manufacture of their battery modules. Initially, that was a decision driven on their desire to have a beachhead in the sale of BEVs earlier in the decade. At that time no one was manufacturing BEV specific modules in any volume, so it was a make or buy decision. That combined with the later desire to divest and outsource the supply of traction batteries and the difficulty in doing so is the main reason that the passive cells are still in use today. With the rollout of a new BEV modular platform soon, and finally being able to successfully divest the battery business will give them an opportunity to move to a new architecture and may usher in an active battery management strategy.

It seems like you're basing your points on some good knowledge of some of what they've been up to, but, notwithstanding any of your points, I can tell you as someone who attended the early 2013 Phoenix Town Hall and listened (somewhat gritting my teeth) to the explanations, and as someone who experienced loss of bars in a car that had range that was badly inadequate for my purposes to begin with, and who sat there for years concerned that Nissan was not listening sufficiently, I am now concerned that Nissan has failed to understand the importance of spending more money up-front to help do more to guard battery life and thus help safeguard vehicle values down the road. I hope indeed that it turns out they have done their homework and offered a car and battery that will do well over time. We shall see. Even though the Bolt has a more than 2 year head start on the Leaf e-plus, I'll try to consider buying a used Leaf e-plus, when the time comes, if the price has come down enough and if the battery has shown good signs that it holds up its end of things over time and over miles.
 
Nissan understands the importance. It's just that they don't care, as long as their bottom line is better with poorly cooled batteries than with thermally managed ones.

The reason that not much distinction is made between un-cooled packs and A/C cooled packs is that, so far, the A/C cooling is only used to cool the packs while the car is fast charging. That won't help a car sitting in a parking lot in 110F temps, or driving in 95F temps on a commute.
 
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