RustyShackleford
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:59 pm
Delivery Date: 0- 0-2018
Location: central NC

battery replacement options in the future ?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:30 pm

Thinking of buying a nearly-new SV (2018 w/ 5k miles) and having never had an electric vehicle, we're looking down the road a little (so to speak). I understand the batteries will require replacement in 10 years or so. What assurance is there that replacement batteries would be available ? And are advances in battery technology that occur between now and then likely to be incorporated into whatever replacements are available ? Thinking possibly not, if the available replacements were manufactured earlier (e.g. now), so newer technology might be unavailable in the proper form-factor/packaging. Are my questions ridiculous because they require a crystal ball ? Thanks.
2018 Nissan Leaf SV
2006 Subaru Outback 2.5i Ltd

cwerdna
Posts: 9764
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: battery replacement options in the future ?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:46 pm

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?
RustyShackleford wrote: I understand the batteries will require replacement in 10 years or so.
What makes you think this?
RustyShackleford wrote:What assurance is there that replacement batteries would be available ?
None. However, Nissan would have warranty obligations for 40 kWh Leafs until they stop making them. 40 kWh Leafs have an 8 year/100K battery capacity and defects warranty. I suppose that could be possibly short-circuited (for lack of better terms) and if Nissan had no parts, they could do something else (e.g. buyback a vehicle).

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

RustyShackleford
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:59 pm
Delivery Date: 0- 0-2018
Location: central NC

Re: battery replacement options in the future ?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:08 pm

cwerdna wrote:Can you update your location info
Done (it's central North Carolina)
What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?
Mainly my wife will use it for going to town for groceries, yoga, etc, maybe 25 miles total. Occasionally to one son's perhaps 50 RT, and other's maybe 100 RT. We're retired. Farther-away son can put in a 240v outlet. For longer trips (usually together) we'll use my Subaru or whatever we replace it with.
RustyShackleford wrote: I understand the batteries will require replacement in 10 years or so.
What makes you think this?
The warranty implies it (seems to me).
RustyShackleford wrote:What assurance is there that replacement batteries would be available ?
None. However, Nissan would have warranty obligations for 40 kWh Leafs until they stop making them. 40 kWh Leafs have an 8 year/100K battery capacity and defects warranty. I suppose that could be possibly short-circuited (for lack of better terms) and if Nissan had no parts, they could do something else (e.g. buyback a vehicle).
Ok, thanks.
2018 Nissan Leaf SV
2006 Subaru Outback 2.5i Ltd

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: battery replacement options in the future ?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:35 pm

The batteries may well stay usable to 15 years or even longer, but the range would be reduced below your needs long before then. So the real question becomes "How long before I need a new battery, and will it be possible and affordable to do so?" Given your warm-but-not-Hot climate, you have a tough choice: drive the car gently to preserve that 100+ mile range as long as possible, or drive it with indifference to battery life and hope for a warranty replacement in 5-8 years. The problem with both options is that you would spend years driving with range right around 100 miles. It might make sense to plan to turn the car in if leased, or sell it if bought, before the usable range dips under 100 miles. Given your needs it would probably make sense to plan on driving a 200+ mile range (when new) car in four years or so, unless those 100 mile RT drives don't count because of available charging at both ends..
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 9764
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: battery replacement options in the future ?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:54 pm

Basically what Leftie said. The reasons for asking about location and needs are to determine range needs and if it's a hot climate (more capacity loss over time than a cooler one).

1st Leafs came out in Dec 2010, but I don't see a reason for the batteries to suddenly fail at the 10, 11 or 12 year mark (for example). They will lose capacity and maybe a lot. The worst I've seen a pic of a 2011 Leaf with 9 capacity bars out of 12 gone, which means probably 35% of capacity remaining. (See table at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/battery-d1/ Battery Capacity Behavior.) But the '11 and '12 Leafs had a crap chemistry. Nissan has changed the chemistry several times since then and the 40 kWh battery is too new for us to know much about how it will hold up. But, there's the 8 year/100K capacity warranty I referred to. Unfortunately, we don't know what the 8 bars represents as the table went away in later service manuals I don't know if it ever came back. Warranty talks about capacity bars, not % capacity remaining.

(Nissan has previously said "the lithium-ion battery for your 2011 or 2012 Nissan LEAF is now also warranted against capacity loss below nine (9) bars (or approximately below 70 percent" at viewtopic.php?t=13192 and something similar at a few other places but AFAIK, none of the US capacity warranties in the warranty booklets have ever indicated a % remaining, only capacity bars.)

I can't think of a single case of pack failure here. Plenty of older Leafs have had packs replaced for capacity loss. A tiny set of people have had a bad module, which is covered by the battery defects warranty (if not expired). The bad module gets replaced, not the entire pack.

viewtopic.php?t=21997 has been swapping in packs or modules from newer wrecked Leafs w/batteries in better condition into older Leafs. I could see this happening if for some reason Nissan no longer produces 40 kWh packs. There surely will be some wrecked 40 kWh Leafs.

If you got lucky and got new pack under warranty due to losing enough bars before expiration, then you can probably go for quite awhile longer. And, having charging on both ends doubles the operating radius of an EV. You can also look for charging using https://www.plugshare.com/. You'd want to filter by J1772 and CHAdeMO (if the car has the larger DC FC inlet on the left.)

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

RustyShackleford
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:59 pm
Delivery Date: 0- 0-2018
Location: central NC

Re: battery replacement options in the future ?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:30 am

Thanks for the thoughts, guys. She (wife, it's mainly for her) went ahead and bought the car; couldn't see springing at extra $7k or so (even with the $7500 federal credit) for new instead of 1yr/5K older used.

One thing:
Given your warm-but-not-Hot climate, you have a tough choice: drive the car gently to preserve that 100+ mile range as long as possible, or drive it with indifference to battery life and hope for a warranty replacement in 5-8 years.
Can you describe how driving style affects battery life ?
2018 Nissan Leaf SV
2006 Subaru Outback 2.5i Ltd

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: battery replacement options in the future ?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:58 pm

Can you describe how driving style affects battery life ?
Not so much driving as charging behavior. Charging the battery while it is hot (more than 6 temp bars on the dash "gauge") and leaving it charged to 100% but un-driven, especially in hot weather (75F or higher) accelerate battery deterioration. Driving with a lead right foot in hot weather will also raise battery temp.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

RustyShackleford
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:59 pm
Delivery Date: 0- 0-2018
Location: central NC

Re: battery replacement options in the future ?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:05 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Can you describe how driving style affects battery life ?
Not so much driving as charging behavior. Charging the battery while it is hot (more than 6 temp bars on the dash "gauge") ....
Sounds like a charger that doesn't come on, until a few hours after you've plugged it in, would be useful then.
2018 Nissan Leaf SV
2006 Subaru Outback 2.5i Ltd

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13305
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
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Re: battery replacement options in the future ?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:10 pm

As I replied in another topic, yes. Your Leaf has 2 charge timers.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

retrodog
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: Houston/Galveston TX

Re: battery replacement options in the future ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:45 am

Over and above the whole environmental issue, try to focus on the personal (self centered) benefits of the car:

No gasoline exposure. Gasoline is a horrible chemical to come into contact with on a regular basis. If people knew how dangerous and unhealthy it was, they'd wear a chemical respirator and rubber gloves when filling up.

No trips to the gas station. You (and especially your wife) are no longer exposed to panhandlers, purse thieves, credit card scanners, identity theft, or any of the other numerous scumballs that can show up there.

Refined operation. The level of refinement of an EV is lightyears ahead of 99.9% of all ICE vehicles. The responsiveness and smooth power transfer are often overlooked in reviews and discussions of EV vs. lCE vehicles. But it is the #1 reason that I went that route. I started with an EV motorcycle (Vectrix VX-1) back in 08 and eventually ended up with a Leaf and a Volt. Since the Volt pretty much always runs on the electric motor, it maintains a very similar level of refinement to a true EV.

By the time I got a taste of these benefits, I decided I didn't care if I had to replace the battery pack or the whole car in 10 years. The money you save on gasoline should pay for it, to some extent if not totally, and the benefits of driving it would be well worth it.
President and only member of the Machine Gun Toting Electric Scooter Riders club, Texas chapter.

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