LeftieBiker
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Re: Best cells donor for 2012 SL

Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:15 pm

alozzy wrote:
Andrey wrote:I wonder if there is a way to get battery status from dismounted battery.
https://evsenhanced.com/products/leaf-b ... test-loop/
Interesting. So I assume it reads BMS data?
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Andrey
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 9:56 pm
Delivery Date: 04 May 2019
Leaf Number: 019812

Re: Best cells donor for 2012 SL

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:10 pm

Thanks guys for interesting facts. Seems 30kwh effort doesn't worth it: more expensive and heavier battery, adapter to connect it to gen1 + pair tool, both for "who-knows-what" money that's not even announced by this NZ company, plus higher chances to get same problem that I have now rather sooner than later. And only for 6kwh - low ROI I'd say.
alozzy wrote:
Andrey wrote:I wonder if there is a way to get battery status from dismounted battery.
https://evsenhanced.com/products/leaf-b ... test-loop/
Thanks a bunch, queried them.

alozzy
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Contact: Website

Re: Best cells donor for 2012 SL

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:01 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
alozzy wrote:
Andrey wrote:I wonder if there is a way to get battery status from dismounted battery.
https://evsenhanced.com/products/leaf-b ... test-loop/
Interesting. So I assume it reads BMS data?
Based on the sales copy, it's a test loop that allows you to measure the current flow using a clamp style ammeter:

Image
... With the test loop installed, the battery current flows through the wire loop which allows the use of various current clamps with either a display or output to a data logger ...
If you are trying to measure the battery capacity of a pack that's been removed from a LEAF already, this would be pretty much the only easy way to do so.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
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LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: Best cells donor for 2012 SL

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:37 pm

Can the current yield the capacity if you don't know the SOC? I guess the voltage would determine that...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Lothsahn
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Best cells donor for 2012 SL

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:36 pm

Andrey wrote:Thanks guys for interesting facts. Seems 30kwh effort doesn't worth it: more expensive and heavier battery, adapter to connect it to gen1 + pair tool, both for "who-knows-what" money that's not even announced by this NZ company, plus higher chances to get same problem that I have now rather sooner than later. And only for 6kwh - low ROI I'd say.
alozzy wrote:
Andrey wrote:I wonder if there is a way to get battery status from dismounted battery.
https://evsenhanced.com/products/leaf-b ... test-loop/
Thanks a bunch, queried them.
To be fair, the tool is individually and hand made by the company (quite well, too), so they're targeted to shops that repair cars (not individuals). The price is known, but not published on the website. The best plan for an individual is to rent the tool, as it would be very expensive to buy for just a single swap. The engineer at the company is very professional, helpful, and has done numerous presentations to help EV's and the EV market. He provides rather rare service for Leafs in New Zealand, which is important, as the only support and supply for those Leafs is imports.

I know all of this because I've used the tool to swap batteries between two cars. It worked exceptionally well with no issues. I don't own the tool--I rented one from a "local" shop that has them. In short: The company is real, is doing a significant service to EVs and in particular Leaf owners, and the tool is not "upcoming" or vaporware.

That said, you can't use this tool to pair a 30 or 40kWh pack--unless you already have a 30 or 40kWh car. The tool only supports pairing like for like batteries. At some point in the future, someone may provide a solution to install a 30 or 40 kWh battery into a 24 kWh car and have it work properly, but that does not currently exist. Nissan has engineered the batteries to be incompatible, even though it would be rather easy to make them compatible. The connectors, mounting brackets, and physical external of the pack are identical. People have mounted 30 or 40 kWh cells into a 24 kWh battery pack, using the 24 kWh BMS. And the range estimation and charging circuitry don't work right (due to different voltage curves), but otherwise everything functions. So, if Nissan really wanted to provide 40 kWh replacements for 24 kWh cars, it would be trivial to do so.

In any case, if you're looking to do this, you need to search for either 48 24kWh individual battery modules (96 total cells), open up your pack, and swap the cells, or you need to do a full pack swap with a 24 kWh pack. The best pack to use would be a 2015 pack with 12 bars, but realistically, any 11 or 12 bar pack from 4/2013 or later would be a good choice. Keep in mind that the packs are 600-800 pounds each, so installing them is no trivial matter. You need heavy duty tools, preferably lift tables.

Opening up the pack is even more dangerous--you have to disassemble 48 modules in a pack that, even with the safety fuse pulled, has > 200V running through the busbars. You need the necessary HV safety gloves and insulated tools for such a job. This is why the NZ tool was developed--when doing a pack swap, you can pull the safety fuse, which eliminates any external electrocution hazard when doing the pack swap.

Hope this helps.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

Andrey
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 9:56 pm
Delivery Date: 04 May 2019
Leaf Number: 019812

Re: Best cells donor for 2012 SL

Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:19 pm

Yes it does, Lothsahn, thank you for sharing this info. Do you know the place where can I rent this tool in CA?

Nissan could do better job for EV customer perspective, that's 100%, but they care about their profit, not customer satisfaction.

I've seen lots of videos how people repacks those, and realize danger of HV. BTW in my country 240v is network voltage, and I did electric works myself there. But first I still need to find a good battery assuming worst case scenario - seller doesn't know/didn't capture anything about battery and it's already dismounted.

Lothsahn
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Best cells donor for 2012 SL

Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:20 pm

Andrey wrote:Yes it does, Lothsahn, thank you for sharing this info. Do you know the place where can I rent this tool in CA?

Nissan could do better job for EV customer perspective, that's 100%, but they care about their profit, not customer satisfaction.

I've seen lots of videos how people repacks those, and realize danger of HV. BTW in my country 240v is network voltage, and I did electric works myself there. But first I still need to find a good battery assuming worst case scenario - seller doesn't know/didn't capture anything about battery and it's already dismounted.
Some people have built custom cabling they can hook up to the battery and hook that up to a CAN adapter for LeafSpy. You could message Cor about that. I don't have such an adapter and thus can't tell. If you can get such an adapter, Leafspy can tell you the SOH off the battery pack without being installed in a car.

Alternatively, you could try to figure out whether it's a gen 1 or gen 2 pack. If it's a Gen2 pack, it's likely (but not guaranteed to be) in good condition. Here's how to see the difference between a Gen1 and Gen2 pack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqAbiyZqp1w

If you want to do a pack swap, you'll need the plastic panels that protect the battery from water and road debris, as they differ from Gen1 to Gen2. You'll also need the mounting brackets as the mounting holes differ on the two cases. If you don't have the mounting brackets or panels, you'll have to buy them from Nissan or a junkyard.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

Andrey
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 9:56 pm
Delivery Date: 04 May 2019
Leaf Number: 019812

Re: Best cells donor for 2012 SL

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:51 pm

Lothsahn wrote:
If you want to do a pack swap, you'll need the plastic panels that protect the battery from water and road debris, as they differ from Gen1 to Gen2. You'll also need the mounting brackets as the mounting holes differ on the two cases. If you don't have the mounting brackets or panels, you'll have to buy them from Nissan or a junkyard.
So gen2 battery is mountable to gen1? But I guess I'd need to replace BMS there + wiring + busbars there, I wonder if it fits new shell.

To make things even worse - if I buy wrecked leaf, is it possible to swap gen2 engine + charger to gen1 to get 6.6kw charging? Maybe even together with cooling system. Will such car be street legal and do I need to register the changes?

PS: this car seems to be a victim of BMS reset, ins't it? 23k miles, 12 bars battery, 8 bars charge and only 51 range in ECO.
https://3f6a09f79258cdaaf7a5-6c8ccb4d9e ... c63e11.jpg
Last edited by Andrey on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lothsahn
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Best cells donor for 2012 SL

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:11 pm

Andrey wrote:
Lothsahn wrote:
If you want to do a pack swap, you'll need the plastic panels that protect the battery from water and road debris, as they differ from Gen1 to Gen2. You'll also need the mounting brackets as the mounting holes differ on the two cases. If you don't have the mounting brackets or panels, you'll have to buy them from Nissan or a junkyard.
So gen2 battery is mountable to gen1? But I guess I'd need to replace BMS there + wiring + busbars there, I wonder if it fits new shell.

To make things even worse - if I buy wrecked leaf, is it possible to swap gen2 engine + charger to gen1 to get 6.6kw charging? Maybe even together with cooling system. Will such car be street legal and do I need to register the changes?
Two options:
1) Swap the battery cells. In this case, you drop the pack, open it up, remove all the old Gen1 cells, and put the new Gen2 cells in. Close up the pack and reinstall into your car. No new brackets, harnesses, adapters, or panels are needed, as the cells fit right in. However, you're opening up a 200V+ battery pack that is energized, so the risk is higher. Also, this won't reset your car's battery capacity bars--you'll have a 7 bar car that has the range of a new battery. Matters if you try to sell your car...

2) Swap the entire pack. In this case, yes, you'll need new panels and a mounting harness as the shells are slightly different. The car will recognize the new pack and the battery capacity bars will reflect the new pack.


No, you cannot use a 2013+ charger in a 2011/2012 leaf. The charger/motor/inverter stack and location is totally different, so upgrading to 6.6kw charging is essentially not possible. There are a couple people who did it with aftermarket chargers, but nobody's used the stock leaf charger from a 2013 in a 2011/2012. If you swapped the entire EV stack--VCM, Inverter, Motor, charger, and wiring harnesses, then yes, it'd work--you'd have a 2013 car in a 2011 body. But who wants to do all THAT work? Just sell the car and buy a 2013 at that point...
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

Andrey
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 9:56 pm
Delivery Date: 04 May 2019
Leaf Number: 019812

Re: Best cells donor for 2012 SL

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:25 pm

Lothsahn wrote: 2) Swap the entire pack. In this case, yes, you'll need new panels and a mounting harness as the shells are slightly different. The car will recognize the new pack and the battery capacity bars will reflect the new pack.
Will I need to ask dealer to pair the battery or do swap BMS? Benefit of this that I would be able to cell my 8 bar battery.
Lothsahn wrote: If you swapped the entire EV stack--VCM, Inverter, Motor, charger, and wiring harnesses, then yes, it'd work--you'd have a 2013 car in a 2011 body. But who wants to do all THAT work? Just sell the car and buy a 2013 at that point...
Yes, that's what I talk about. From that perspective I start to realize the amount of work, even for DIY. I keep forgetting it's not a toy but 1.5 ton car, even if it looks like a toy. BTW I don't see any difference in 2012 and 2013 bodies.

Can you advice on if it's BMS reset victim or not? I updated previous post with the link.

Thanks LothSahn, you're just priceless source of Leaf knowledge!

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