jlsoaz
Posts: 725
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Battery Leasing in hot climate areas?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:41 am

Hi -

I spent about 5 minutes trying to figure out if there were existing battery leasing or battery lease threads, and I couldn't find them using the search box here, so here is my question:

Has there been any talk or consideration given, by Nissan or by Leaf enthusiasts, possibly to bringing back the idea of battery leasing here in the US. (I ask about the US in part because I am in the US, but in part because they have had battery leasing programs in other regions, haven't they?). I'm particularly interested in whether it might be a thought for the hot climates where we might want to consider a longer-range Leaf but are wary of the question marks hanging over cycle life in the heat.
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/ba ... hp?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Battery Leasing in hot climate areas?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:27 pm

Nissan did float the idea, but it never came to fruition. IIRC it would have been $100 per month.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

jlsoaz
Posts: 725
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: Battery Leasing in hot climate areas?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:35 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:27 pm
Nissan did float the idea, but it never came to fruition. IIRC it would have been $100 per month.
Thanks, I also seem to remember some talk about possible battery leasing some years ago. It's very unlikely I would personally get a Leaf at this time, but if they did offer reasonably-priced battery leasing on the e+, then I have to wonder if, over the next five years, it would significantly change my discussions with my fellow Southern Arizona residents, and I might be able to re-include consideration of the Leaf e+ in my thinking and suggestions to them. At present, I just basically leave it alone and say that I'd have to see the Leaf battery show how it holds up over 5+ years and ~50-100,000 miles before I could consider one again, or consider suggesting one to others.
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/ba ... hp?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

GRA
Posts: 11099
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery Leasing in hot climate areas?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:49 pm

AFAIA, the only BEV in the U.S. to offer battery leasing was the Smart ED, but IIRR that was discontinued a while back, although it was very popular when introduced. Here's one article describing it, and I'm sure you could find links to more in the Smart topic: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/10 ... rs-love-it


I agree that given degradation, restricted range and frequent battery improvement, battery leasing is the way to go for now if you want to keep the car for a long time, but need constant (or better yet, improving) range.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: Battery Leasing in hot climate areas?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:54 pm

There is also, of course, regular car leasing. It's more expensive, but you do get a fresh battery (and car) every 2-4 years.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GRA
Posts: 11099
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery Leasing in hot climate areas?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:10 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:54 pm
There is also, of course, regular car leasing. It's more expensive, but you do get a fresh battery (and car) every 2-4 years.

True, but in addition to the higher cost it's also much more energy intensive compared to just leasing the battery, for those who are looking at EVs as a way to reduce that. The hope is that somebody will eventually produce a lifetime battery so that there will be no reason to lease same.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

johnlocke
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
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Leaf Number: 300582

Re: Battery Leasing in hot climate areas?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:32 pm

GRA wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:10 pm
LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:54 pm
There is also, of course, regular car leasing. It's more expensive, but you do get a fresh battery (and car) every 2-4 years.

True, but in addition to the higher cost it's also much more energy intensive compared to just leasing the battery, for those who are looking at EVs as a way to reduce that. The hope is that somebody will eventually produce a lifetime battery so that there will be no reason to lease same.
Tesla Researcher Jeff Dahn just released full specs on the construction and composition of battery cells capable of 3600 discharge cycles with a 10% loss of capacity. Either there's some trick to the construction that makes it difficult to build or Tesla has something even better waiting in the wings (maybe from Maxwell). They even detailed the electrolyte composition and the electrodes used. This could be the basis for Tesla's "1,000,000 mile" battery. The battery they built was a pouch style battery but the chemistry should be applicable to cylindrical cells as well. Dahn released the info with the note that this could be used as a benchmark by other researchers implying that the cell and it's chemistry could be duplicated by others and perhaps even improved upon.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

jlsoaz
Posts: 725
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: Battery Leasing in hot climate areas?

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:47 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:54 pm
There is also, of course, regular car leasing. It's more expensive, but you do get a fresh battery (and car) every 2-4 years.
"regular car leasing" .... or, as I like to call it, holding a never-ending bonfire with money.

the gasoline vehicle paradigm that has been out there my whole life seems to be based on providing the payer with not-entirely-safe but certainly in some ways fun transportation from A to B and extracting an overly high price from that payer based on tempting them with gilded carriages, fancy financial footwork, better and more fancy and fun vehicles, and, in the end, very little equity. The way that some people avoid the worst of the financial hit is to eschew the steeper portions of the depreciation curve for a gasoline vehicle. I may be wrong, but part of this is, I think, to eschew leasing. For example, a person can spend $5,000 cash for a used vehicle with 50,000 miles on it, drive it for another 100k or 200k miles, bear the expenses of doing so, and, in the end, undoubtedly spend less than another person who may opt for all the latest bells and whistles, all the time. The cheap used car driver may also have less fun, and perhaps have less safety, though older cars do not necessarily mean joyless transportation.

For longer-range BEVS, it seems like there is the possibility that the good ones will last longer than comparable gasoline vehicles. That is, the length of the depreciation curve may change. I'm not sure if this logically means that a buyer seeking low costs per mile would avoid the earlier part of the curve. If one wants to wait to spend just $3k or $5k on a *good* used BEV, as one might have done for a good used gasoline vehicle, one may have to wait a long time? Still, a wildcard here is the condition of the battery. We know that in an air-cooled Leaf in a hot climate, there is reason to see the depreciation on that battery as a question mark.... I'm not saying it's a certainty that the battery will degrade... I'm saying it's not known with confidence that it will hold up. So, to my mind, that's the sort of limited situation where leasing the battery might make sense, and might in the end give some slight confidence boost to buyers of the chassis that they can be assured that the battery at any given time will meet some minimum standard.
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/ba ... hp?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

Oilpan4
Gold Member
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Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Battery Leasing in hot climate areas?

Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:27 am

jlsoaz wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:47 am
LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:54 pm
There is also, of course, regular car leasing. It's more expensive, but you do get a fresh battery (and car) every 2-4 years.
"regular car leasing" .... or, as I like to call it, holding a never-ending bonfire with money.
That's how I see it.
I have always only made 1 car payment to get any of my cars or trucks.
I figure I saved probably $30,000 on the price of the car, about $5,000 in interest, a few thousand in taxes, probably at least $5,000 in insurance.
Buying a new car is dumb.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

goldbrick
Posts: 624
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Delivery Date: 01 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: Battery Leasing in hot climate areas?

Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:55 am

Oilpan4 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:27 am
Buying a new car is dumb.
I used to think that too until I found I could buy a new 2017 Leaf for about $5k less than used 2015 models were selling for locally. It's amazing how EV rebates and credits can change the equation....

To be honest, I do have to admit that new car technology is much improved over the 200x era cars that we also currently own. I'm not a big fan of all the new electronic gadgets but ICE engines, transmissions, etc have improved a lot over the last 15 or so years. But there are still reliable ICE cars from the early 2000's out there that get 30mpg or so for $5k or less.

I do all my own car maintenance so that is a big factor too. We bought our last car with 110k miles on it and I think the original owners just buy a new car every 10 years and drive it until about 100k miles then get another when the warranties expire. I guess it all depends on if you want to 'pre-pay' for maintenance and depreciation or take your chances that you can cover the costs for less yourself.

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