coleafrado
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:58 pm

Re: POLL: Would you pay $17k to install a 70 kWh active-cooled battery in your 2010-2017 LEAF?

Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:08 pm

frontrangeleaf wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:28 pm
Drop $10k into a 3-10 year old car based on a 10 year old design? Ummm, in a word, no. Still no.

Might turn into the collector’s car of the century, I suppose, but I have a long list of better things to drop $10k on.

$2-3k? Maybe. Probably not. The original Leaf just isn’t that compelling to me personally, even as an in-town runabout for reasons discussed above.

YMMV. I’m sure there are folks on this board who may feel differently.

Edit: clarified after re-reading the thread.
$10k is a ton, but hardly anyone in this thread seems to want a 70 kWh pack. Model 3 SR owners seem to get along fine with 50 kWh, even for road trips - that pack would be around 30% cheaper than one sized at 70 kWh. Most single-car owners I know have a hatchback or sedan; $3-7k for a car plus $4-8k for 300km worth of battery (with non-thermally-limited fast charging, meaning road trips aren't a nightmare) is something I've heard is decently compelling. Not "bust out the wallet, we're buying!" good, with gas at $1.50/gallon, but lukewarm good.

In the end, an upgraded Leaf is only a little cheaper than a used Bolt and likely harder to sell. Much cheaper than a Tesla, but lacks the cool factor and a few other things (speed, resale value, autopilot, being a vandalism magnet).

It makes sense for people who like specific aspects of the Leaf over other cars - its size, headroom, running costs, hatchback, the seats - or just plain don't want to buy a new car.

GerryAZ
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Re: POLL: Would you pay $17k to install a 70 kWh active-cooled battery in your 2010-2017 LEAF?

Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:48 pm

If my 2011 had not been totaled, I would likely be looking for a larger battery for it, but I would not want the complexity and extra energy consumption of active cooling. I would certainly be looking at a 40 kWh Nissan battery if available from a dealer with warranty, otherwise I would purchase a used 40 or 62 kWh pack and install it myself. There were several features I did not care for on the 2015 so I probably would not have upgraded it.

I expect the 2019 to meet my daily driving needs for a long time so I don't anticipate a battery replacement for at least 10 years.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

frontrangeleaf
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Location: Denver Area

Re: POLL: Would you pay $17k to install a 70 kWh active-cooled battery in your 2010-2017 LEAF?

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:47 am

coleafrado wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:08 pm
frontrangeleaf wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:28 pm
Drop $10k into a 3-10 year old car based on a 10 year old design? Ummm, in a word, no. Still no.

Might turn into the collector’s car of the century, I suppose, but I have a long list of better things to drop $10k on.

$2-3k? Maybe. Probably not. The original Leaf just isn’t that compelling to me personally, even as an in-town runabout for reasons discussed above.

YMMV. I’m sure there are folks on this board who may feel differently.

Edit: clarified after re-reading the thread.
$10k is a ton, but hardly anyone in this thread seems to want a 70 kWh pack. Model 3 SR owners seem to get along fine with 50 kWh, even for road trips - that pack would be around 30% cheaper than one sized at 70 kWh. Most single-car owners I know have a hatchback or sedan; $3-7k for a car plus $4-8k for 300km worth of battery (with non-thermally-limited fast charging, meaning road trips aren't a nightmare) is something I've heard is decently compelling. Not "bust out the wallet, we're buying!" good, with gas at $1.50/gallon, but lukewarm good.

In the end, an upgraded Leaf is only a little cheaper than a used Bolt and likely harder to sell. Much cheaper than a Tesla, but lacks the cool factor and a few other things (speed, resale value, autopilot, being a vandalism magnet).

It makes sense for people who like specific aspects of the Leaf over other cars - its size, headroom, running costs, hatchback, the seats - or just plain don't want to buy a new car.
I suppose. The value proposition of the gen2 is vastly more compelling on any number of grounds. It's just a better car all around. Not to mention easier on the eyes... It does depend on your use case. No question.

For us, ~60kWh is the bare minimum given today's technology ecosystem around the battery (control electronics, drivetrain, etc). Not because we "need" the range, but because we're not willing to sweat how we use the car as much as other folks apparently are. "Need" is relative. I've written in other threads that driving my car is not a video game to me. Attaching dongles and futzing around with software apps to squeeze the last few hundred yards of range is not my idea of a good time. I'm just flat not interested in all that.

Dramatically more than ~60kWh drives the price into a range that becomes prohibitive for our use case today. But I expect to upgrade to more capacity in our next EV for similar money in a few years. Our out of pocket for the Leaf + amounted to very similar money to a top of the line Corolla. The Leaf is a vastly nicer car than any Corolla - with apologies to all the Corolla lovers out there.

As to the EV experience, we don't worry about range. Ever. We don't worry about where the nearest charger is. Ever. We drive the car like any other car, except that we charge at home instead of making a stop somewhere else to refuel it. And we have fun with it. It's not a sports car, true, but it's definitely sporty. If someone more knowledgable than I were offering a suspension upgrade kit, I'd be interested. And a way to fix the ridiculously light steering, please. But range is not an issue. And it actually handles pretty well if you stay ahead of it, i.e. apply power at the right point in a turn.

We didn't buy this vehicle to take long over-the-road trips. Wrong tool for that. As I've written before, we don't take our roadster off-road, nor are we disappointed that we really couldn't. The Leaf plus can be taken on long road trips, but you're working pretty hard at it. We have the Q5 for that. Our position is that EVERY vehicle is compromise. So what compromise are you making, and does it fit your purpose?

I might add that I'm a senior guy in IT - not a technophobe here. My experience in IT colors my views, but not in the ways some might expect. I think Tesla's giant touch screen is a giant step backwards in ergonomics - a deal killer for me. No thank you. My 14.5 cents of course. Plenty of folks love their touch screens in their car. I think that "targeting" is real issue, requiring the user to take their eyes off the road for far too long while they try to land on a software control.

That's a great idea on a tablet, but a horrible idea in a car, despite some really cool software behind it in the Teslas. Nicely done. Now give me my stalk controls back. No, I'm not going to dig around through any menu system to fine tune what the wipers are doing. No thank you. This is not progress. And no, the auto wipers don't always do what I want them to do, nor is "autopilot" 100% a replacement for watching the road. There are other ergonomic solutions available that are superior. And for Tesla money, you have to get it right.

All that said, I'm glad to see folks seriously running the numbers to explore how to make a battery replacement aftermarket work. For the sake of all those gen1 Leaf lovers out there, I hope you succeed.
Empty-nesters - NW Denver-Boulder Area

2019 Leaf SL Plus
2015 Audi Q5 TDI
2007 BMW Z4 3.0Si
2012 VW GTI

smkettner
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Re: POLL: Would you pay $17k to install a 70 kWh active-cooled battery in your 2010-2017 LEAF?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:14 pm

I would have paid it back in 2014. Have since moved on....
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

alozzy
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Re: POLL: Would you pay $17k to install a 70 kWh active-cooled battery in your 2010-2017 LEAF?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:21 pm

For the sake of the environment, I hope all EV owners have an affordable replacement pack option in the near future. When my LEAF's range no longer meets my needs, I'll feel pretty guilty and bummed out if I can't upgrade the battery pack for $5k or less.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
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Loving my first BEV :D

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: POLL: Would you pay $10k to install a 70 kWh active-cooled battery in your 2010-2017 LEAF?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:36 am

The needs of the masses cover every conceivable scenario so yeah, someone will pay $10 K to upgrade a 9 year old car but that market is small and shrinking daily.

Personally, I doubt 70 kwh could be pulled off for $10 K in most cases. What is the value of an 8 or 9 bar 24 kwh LEAF pack? Definitely not $6K.

As far as the comment that Model 3 standards are just fine for road trips; I know a few that will dispute that especially come Winter. Granted, its an EV and comes with a level of compromise but I know two people who still were taken by surprise (not sure why because I gave them a pretty good idea of what to expect and I was not wrong) which brings me to the point of money.

$10 K on a used car is like $15 K on a new car. Its all relative. Age matters. I have often wondered what I would have paid to upgrade my 2011 (more likely my 2013 since it had the Weather package) and I am conflicted. My 2013 was a LOT cheaper than my 2011 which one would expect going from a fully loaded SL (FYI; there weren't many options then) to an S with weather and charge.

But the S had what I wanted to pay for. The SL had what? NAV? which I still consider one of the WORST use of money in an automobile purchase. Now, it did have a CD player which I liked but even that isn't worth extra any more. To make a long story longer, If I did pay $10K for the battery upgrade on my 2013, it still would have come in cheaper than my 2011.

But that is how progress goes, right?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
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johnlocke
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Leaf Number: 300582

Re: POLL: Would you pay $10k to install a 70 kWh active-cooled battery in your 2010-2017 LEAF?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:28 pm

$10 K into a $7K car with 5 year old electronics? Even if I got a 60 KWH battery with a 100K/8 Year warranty, it doesn't make make it a $15K car. Without active cooling, my guess is that the battery might make it past the warranty but not much more in my climate.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

Oilpan4
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Re: POLL: Would you pay $10k to install a 70 kWh active-cooled battery in your 2010-2017 LEAF?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:42 pm

What active cool battery where?
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

cwerdna
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Re: POLL: Would you pay $10k to install a 70 kWh active-cooled battery in your 2010-2017 LEAF?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:26 pm

It's a poll based upon a hypothetical situation... What the OP proposes doesn't exist.

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'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

coleafrado
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:58 pm

Re: POLL: Would you pay $10k to install a 70 kWh active-cooled battery in your 2010-2017 LEAF?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:12 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:26 pm
It's a poll based upon a hypothetical situation... What the OP proposes doesn't exist.
This isn't necessarily a product that will actually happen, but more of a thought experiment; don't get your hopes up.
To rephrase this: it isn't a product, and won't happen, unless someone in China gets the bright idea to do it and export upgraded packs or one of the startups actually starts producing something of value. I personally do not have the capital or the time or any incentive to start up a production plant for aftermarket batteries particularly when demand for them, as seen in the past ten pages, is so lukewarm. Since everyone seems intent on owning a Tesla, perhaps the more environmentally friendly option would be to crush old Leafs when their batteries die.

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