LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Prime or Leaf SL+ this weekend

Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:58 pm

Another thing to consider about the Prime: AFAIK it uses the same engine as the previous generation, and that engine isn't as bulletproof as advertised. It has design flaws that often result in chronic rough idle and even rough highway running, and it's a real PITA to work on - you have to remove the windshield wiper assembly (not just the arms - EVERYTHING) to change the spark plugs, for example. If you want to avoid the drawbacks of an ICE, the Prime isn't necessarily your best choice.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

jjeff
Posts: 2213
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Prime or Leaf SL+ this weekend

Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:29 pm

I would go along with those suggesting the Prime. While I really like my all EV Leafs and I just have the older 60-70 mile ones, still especially in your case driving so many miles, it would be nice to have the backup of an ICE. The nice thing about something like the Prime is even though it's EV range is pretty low, the MPG when using it's ICE is very high.
We have an older('07 Prius) and haven't really had any issues other than recent rusted rear springs which broke and required a $600 repair, otherwise the engine and EV powertrain has been rock solid. Not saying you might not have issues like Leftie did but both Toyota's I've had in the last 1.5 decades have gone over 10 years with basically no issues, much better than can say about my Nissans which have had several small issues, all under warranty.
All EVs are nice but in your case I'm not sure I'd want to 100% rely on EV.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
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'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
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coleafrado

Re: Prime or Leaf SL+ this weekend

Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:19 am

Fussion101 wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:42 am
I test drove both and really leaning towards the leaf. I love the way it drives, interior, and the fact I don't have to visit the gas station every 2-3 days.
Here's some math:

You drive 140*5=700 miles per week for work. The Prime can only do about 25 miles a day all-electric if you charge at home, so we'll basically ignore that.

Prius Prime: $27,750
55 mpg, 11.4 gallon tank = 620 miles of range
Gas: $2.60/gallon
700 miles / 55 mpg * 2.60 = $33/week in gas
- Fill ups will be around once a week

Leaf SL+: $36,400 after optimal incentives
3.7 miles/kWh, 60 kWh battery = 220 miles of range
Electricity at home: $0.08/kWh (corrected to your post)
700 miles / 3.7 miles/kWh * $0.13/kWh = $15/week in electricity at home
- Fill ups at home every night, and if you miss one you can't make it to work

  • The Leaf comes out ahead on weekly cost, but costs almost $9k more (or about 600 weeks (11 years!) worth of fuel savings) in the best-case.
  • You can probably write off weekly fuel costs from both vehicles as a work-related expense, but the same doesn't apply for the Leaf battery. $36,400 is after $8k in subsidies from the $45k list price.
  • The drivetrain on the Leaf is never going to give you issues, but the battery will almost certainly degrade to around 80% of original capacity within 6-8 years while the Prime will at most lose 5-10 mpg over that timespan or even improve due to wearing-in
  • At around 3 full charges a week, you'll put ~150 cycles on your Leaf battery per year. Batteries tend to hit 80% capacity after about 700 cycles, giving you about 5 years of life in the pack before your range drops to 170 miles.
  • The SL+ battery won't be down to 30% capacity after five years - maybe 80%. But a replacement pack from Nissan will be around $15k.
  • Roadtrips longer than 200 miles will take about 60-70% longer in the Leaf than they would in a Prius due to the time required for charging.
  • Other posters have mentioned possible maintenance issues with the Prime, but I've ignored them as they're not likely to cost more than $5k over a 10-year span.
The Leaf is a great car, and fun to drive, but on a purely financial basis I'd go for the Prime.

In case you really want to spend $37,000, you could get a used 2014 Tesla...

Triggerhappy007
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:08 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Jan 2019

Re: Prime or Leaf SL+ this weekend

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:44 pm

coleafrado wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:19 am
[*] You can probably write off weekly fuel costs from both vehicles as a work-related expense, but the same doesn't apply for the Leaf battery. $36,400 is after $8k in subsidies from the $45k list price.
[*]At around 3 full charges a week, you'll put ~150 cycles on your Leaf battery per year. Batteries tend to hit 80% capacity after about 700 cycles, giving you about 5 years of life in the pack before your range drops to 170 miles.
How can you write off weekly fuel costs as a work-related expense? I thought that was for things that were not related to your commute. If that was true, I would need to get some money back from the IRS. Plus, didn't they get rid of that in for the 2018 taxes?

If he works 5 days a week, he would need at least 5 charges a week. So that's a least 250 charges a year. I think you were using math in a situation that's not feasible.

I drove a Prime for a year and I didn't really like the way it drove compared to my 40 KWh Leaf. I also didn't like the adaptive cruise or Lane keep assist of the Prime. The Leaf's ProPilot is better. But I wouldn't choose the Leaf or Prime over the Kia Niro EV/Hyundai Kona EV if I was the OP.
2020 Leaf Plus SV Tech & All Weather
2019 Leaf SL - traded in
2020 Pacifica Hybrid Limited AST

coleafrado

Re: Prime or Leaf SL+ this weekend

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:42 am

Triggerhappy007 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:44 pm
How can you write off weekly fuel costs as a work-related expense? I thought that was for things that were not related to your commute. If that was true, I would need to get some money back from the IRS. Plus, didn't they get rid of that in for the 2018 taxes?
Well, as I understood it, any work-related expense can be counted against your income. So you'd have to log miles. Might only be true if you're self-employed, I'm not super up-to-date on tax laws.
If he works 5 days a week, he would need at least 5 charges a week. So that's a least 250 charges a year. I think you were using math in a situation that's not feasible.
That's right, forgot to account for that even though I said they'd need to charge once a week.

Fussion101
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:20 am
Delivery Date: 31 Jan 2020

Re: Prime or Leaf SL+ this weekend

Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:51 pm

I ended up getting the prime. Thank you everyone for all your inputs. The leaf definately handles better. Steering is too loose and too much body roll on the prime. But I'll live with it. I also found out Toyota increased the battery warranty to 150k miles.

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jlv
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Leaf Number: 424487
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Re: Prime or Leaf SL+ this weekend

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:22 pm

I actually consider it sad that this many years later, it's still the case that a car with an ICE (plug-in hyrbrid or not) is still recommended over a LEAF by those who own/drive the LEAF.
LEAF '13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17, sold 11/18, 34K mi, AHr 58, SOH 87%)
Tesla S 75D (3/17, 45K mi)
Tesla X 100D (12/18, 23K mi)
ICE free since '18
100K+ 100% BEV miles since '14

powersurge
Posts: 1743
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Prime or Leaf SL+ this weekend

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:33 pm

jlv wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:22 pm
I actually consider it sad that this many years later, it's still the case that a car with an ICE (plug-in hybrid or not) is still recommended over a LEAF by those who own/drive the LEAF.
Well, I think very few people commute 140 miles per day.... That is a gas-powered car distance..

Personally, I don't ever want to trash my Leaf.... Even with low battery, or with a new battery, I want to keep MY electric car in my hands.

What I fear may happen is that the interest in electric cars will fade, and manufacturers will count on people junking EVs that have hard-to-get batteries..

Proof of point- I recently heard that Honda will not sell the Honda "E" mini EV in the U.S. because there is not enough interest for new EVs in our country...

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jlv
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Re: Prime or Leaf SL+ this weekend

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:13 pm

powersurge wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:33 pm
Well, I think very few people commute 140 miles per day.... That is a gas-powered car distance..
No, that is not a gas-powered car distance. What you mean is that is a distance a LEAF cannot do. There's a difference.

Counterpoint: We have someone here at work who is doing a 150 mile commute in a Model 3.
LEAF '13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17, sold 11/18, 34K mi, AHr 58, SOH 87%)
Tesla S 75D (3/17, 45K mi)
Tesla X 100D (12/18, 23K mi)
ICE free since '18
100K+ 100% BEV miles since '14

GRA
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Re: Prime or Leaf SL+ this weekend

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:25 pm

^^^It's a distance that no relatively affordable BEV can do for ten years in all conditions, yet. A Model 3 LR, probably. Although the OP's made his choice (the right one IMO), I would just remind others who buy cars for the long haul that Hyundai/Kia don't offer capacity warranties in the U.S. (but at least one of them does in Canada).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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