Poll: would you buy a $500 Tesla Supercharger or CCS -> CHAdeMO adapter? What would you risk to make it happen?

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Nissan (and others) seem dead-set on keeping CHAdeMO and CCS alive. Tesla itself is the only auto manufacturer to produce connectors that bridge the electrical (and socioeconomic) gap between differing charging standards - once a year, they produce batches of CHAdeMO to Tesla DCFC adapters, sold for $450 but usually arbitraged over to eBay at $600-800. Tesla owners get permanent access to the entire US Tesla+CHAdeMO DC fast charging network for a measly one-time fee of whatever they pay for the adapter - everyone else is left in the dust.

If you could buy a cable/connector that would allow your Leaf to charge from Superchargers or CCS DCFC at ordinary CHAdeMO speeds, and with fees comparable to EA or EVgo memberships, would you buy it? If you live in Europe, would you buy a similar connector to convert between Tesla's modified Type 2 and your car's Type 2 / CCS inlet?

How much would you, personally, be willing to risk on a campaign to lobby the US Department(s) of Energy+Transportation and Federal Trade Commission to mandate (in the interest of US transportation security) that all charging networks allow EVs with any default connector to use adapters for quick-charging at any station?

Tesla has claimed that they'll let other manufacturers use the Supercharging network provided they shoulder some of the infrastructure cost. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/
 
coleafrado said:
Tesla has claimed that they'll let other manufacturers use the Supercharging network provided they shoulder some of the infrastructure cost. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/
Click to expand...
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon-musk-tesla-is-in-talks-with-other-automakers-about-sharing-the-supercharger-network/ is usually what I point people to (from 2015).
“Our Supercharger network is not intended to be a walled garden,” said Musk. “It’s intended to be available to other manufacturers if they’d like to use it. The only requirements are that the cars must be able to take the power output of our Superchargers, and then just pay whatever their proportion their usage is of the system. We’re actually in talks with some manufacturers about doing just that, and it will be exciting to share that news.”
Click to expand...
If Tesla's requirements stood, I'm not sure how willing Nissan would be willing pay given that they weren't doing so well financially even before the COVID-19 reared its head in a big way outside China.

GM said no: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101774_gm-wont-fund-ccs-fast-charging-sites-for-2017-chevy-bolt-ev. They even did https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/28/business/gm-bechtel-electric-car-charging-stations/index.html:
Neither company plans to put money into this project, though. The two companies will create a separate corporation to build the charging network and other companies are being invited to invest in it. Neither GM nor Bechtel would name potential investors while discussions are still ongoing.
Click to expand...
Great! They won't put any skin in the game yet they want other people/companies to?

Thanks to dieselgate, VW already created its wholly owned subsidiary for EV charging: Electrify America. And, given their rollouts, they seem to be doing the bare minimum for CHAdeMO and stacking the deck in favor of their own brands (e.g. VW, Audi and Porsche) w/all or virtually all sites only have 1 CHAdeMO handle vs. multiple SAE Combo.
 
cwerdna said:
If Tesla's requirements stood, I'm not sure how willing Nissan would be willing pay given that they weren't doing so well financially even before the COVID-19 reared its head in a big way outside China.
Click to expand...

Tesla's requirements are probably irrelevant to the DoE/DoT and FTC.
 
coleafrado said:
Nissan (and others) seem dead-set on keeping CHAdeMO and CCS alive. Tesla itself is the only auto manufacturer to produce connectors that bridge the electrical (and socioeconomic) gap between differing charging standards - once a year, they produce batches of CHAdeMO to Tesla DCFC adapters, sold for $450 but usually arbitraged over to eBay at $600-800. Tesla owners get permanent access to the entire US Tesla+CHAdeMO DC fast charging network for a measly one-time fee of whatever they pay for the adapter - everyone else is left in the dust.

If you could buy a cable/connector that would allow your Leaf to charge from Superchargers or CCS DCFC at ordinary CHAdeMO speeds, and with fees comparable to EA or EVgo memberships, would you buy it? If you live in Europe, would you buy a similar connector to convert between Tesla's modified Type 2 and your car's Type 2 / CCS inlet?

How much would you, personally, be willing to risk on a campaign to lobby the US Department(s) of Energy+Transportation and Federal Trade Commission to mandate (in the interest of US transportation security) that all charging networks allow EVs with any default connector to use adapters for quick-charging at any station?

Tesla has claimed that they'll let other manufacturers use the Supercharging network provided they shoulder some of the infrastructure cost. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/
Click to expand...
CCS and Tesla are the defacto standards now. Chademo is dying a slow death in the US. EVGO is starting to install Tesla plugs on their equipment. If you could build a CCS to Chademo adaptor, it would enable Leafs to charge at a lot more places. Tesla will block third party adapters to their equipment because of the liability issues. Tesla is making and selling ten times as many cars as all the other manufacturers combined and they're just getting started. No reason for them change plugs. It would be nice if they added a CCS plug like they do for Europe but it's not necessary since they already have the largest network anyway.

I might buy a $200 CCS to Chademo adapter just for the convenience but I'm not going to pay $500 for one.
 
johnlocke said:
Tesla will block third party adapters to their equipment because of the liability issues.
Click to expand...

Regulatory action can easily remedy this.
 
coleafrado said:
johnlocke said:
Tesla will block third party adapters to their equipment because of the liability issues.
Click to expand...

Regulatory action can easily remedy this.
Click to expand...

No, I don’t think they can. I definitely don’t think they should, even if they could.
The other car companies were given the chance to join in, they didn’t. End of story.
 
johnlocke said:
Chademo is dying a slow death in the US. EVGO is starting to install Tesla plugs on their equipment.
Click to expand...
By attaching a CHAdeMO to Tesla North American plug adapter on some of their DC FCs: https://www.evgo.com/tesla-charging/.

https://www.evgo.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/evgo-tesla-charging-connector-316x570.jpg has a larger/more visible pic.
 
Hmmm. Not for $500. But an ability to tap into the Tesla network would be of some interest, potentially changing our approach to using this car.

For now, we don’t charge away from home. Don’t need to. Don’t expect to. So it’s more of theoretical interest.

Either a CCS or Tesla adapter for $150 might be of interest, pending more info on battery degradation when fast charging. I don’t see us spending more than that. Might go a little higher for the Tesla version.
 
Zythryn said:
No, I don’t think they can. I definitely don’t think they should, even if they could.
The other car companies were given the chance to join in, they didn’t. End of story.
Click to expand...

It's morally wrong for non-Tesla drivers to have access to Tesla fast chargers, since we clearly have a say in Nissan/GM/Kia HQ's choices against partnering with Tesla, but it's totally fine for Tesla to offer adapters so CHAdeMO stations can be used by any Tesla owner. Interesting point of view!
 
cwerdna said:
johnlocke said:
Chademo is dying a slow death in the US. EVGO is starting to install Tesla plugs on their equipment.
Click to expand...
By attaching a CHAdeMO to Tesla North American plug adapter on some of their DC FCs: https://www.evgo.com/tesla-charging/.
https://www.evgo.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/evgo-tesla-charging-connector-316x570.jpg has a larger/more visible pic.
Click to expand...
That web page also says "or the Tesla connectors available at select San Francisco EVgo stations". In the picture you link, you can see the middle is a Tesla connector (e.g., that station is not using a CHAdeMO adapter).
 
coleafrado said:
Zythryn said:
No, I don’t think they can. I definitely don’t think they should, even if they could.
The other car companies were given the chance to join in, they didn’t. End of story.
Click to expand...

It's morally wrong for non-Tesla drivers to have access to Tesla fast chargers, since we clearly have a say in Nissan/GM/Kia HQ's choices against partnering with Tesla, but it's totally fine for Tesla to offer adapters so CHAdeMO stations can be used by any Tesla owner. Interesting point of view!
Click to expand...

It's a view I agree with. CHAdeMO was always offered as a vehicle-agnostic service. Supercharger network was built from the ground up by Tesla to support their fleet, and therefore paid for by Tesla owners. Tesla's foresight and dedication to a viable charging network have given them a distinct competitive advantage. For some pencil-pushing regulator to blunt that and commandeer that infrastructure would be completely unethical.
 
jlv said:
cwerdna said:
johnlocke said:
Chademo is dying a slow death in the US. EVGO is starting to install Tesla plugs on their equipment.
Click to expand...
By attaching a CHAdeMO to Tesla North American plug adapter on some of their DC FCs: https://www.evgo.com/tesla-charging/.
https://www.evgo.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/evgo-tesla-charging-connector-316x570.jpg has a larger/more visible pic.
Click to expand...
That web page also says "or the Tesla connectors available at select San Francisco EVgo stations". In the picture you link, you can see the middle is a Tesla connector (e.g., that station is not using a CHAdeMO adapter).
Click to expand...
Yes it is. The CHAdeMO adapter is part of the box on the left side. https://insideevs.com/news/390154/video-evgo-fast-charger-integrated-tesla-connector/ maybe will give you a better look. Ditto for https://www.plugshare.com/location/10827. I can try to find other Plugshare pics of EVgo SF locations later tonight.

Notice the CHAdeMO cable (coming out of the DC FC) and connector being plugged into the box on the left? The Tesla proprietary connector comes out of that box, which is the adapter.
 
Nubo said:
It's a view I agree with. CHAdeMO was always offered as a vehicle-agnostic service. Supercharger network was built from the ground up by Tesla to support their fleet, and therefore paid for by Tesla owners. Tesla's foresight and dedication to a viable charging network have given them a distinct competitive advantage. For some pencil-pushing regulator to blunt that and commandeer that infrastructure would be completely unethical.
Click to expand...
Monopoly is evil.
Ending evil is ethical.

Tesla might or might not get a monopoly.
 
Nubo said:
coleafrado said:
Zythryn said:
No, I don’t think they can. I definitely don’t think they should, even if they could.
The other car companies were given the chance to join in, they didn’t. End of story.
Click to expand...

It's morally wrong for non-Tesla drivers to have access to Tesla fast chargers, since we clearly have a say in Nissan/GM/Kia HQ's choices against partnering with Tesla, but it's totally fine for Tesla to offer adapters so CHAdeMO stations can be used by any Tesla owner. Interesting point of view!
Click to expand...

It's a view I agree with. CHAdeMO was always offered as a vehicle-agnostic service. Supercharger network was built from the ground up by Tesla to support their fleet, and therefore paid for by Tesla owners. Tesla's foresight and dedication to a viable charging network have given them a distinct competitive advantage. For some pencil-pushing regulator to blunt that and commandeer that infrastructure would be completely unethical.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree. Tesla would need to be compensated. Not like there are no conceivable solutions - having the government declare that everyone support cross-compatibility itself wouldn't be evil or immoral per se. It just has to be one in a fair way.
 
coleafrado said:
<snip>
How much would you, personally, be willing to risk on a campaign to lobby the US Department(s) of Energy+Transportation and Federal Trade Commission to mandate (in the interest of US transportation security) that all charging networks allow EVs with any default connector to use adapters for quick-charging at any station?

Tesla has claimed that they'll let other manufacturers use the Supercharging network provided they shoulder some of the infrastructure cost. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/
Click to expand...
This seems like a good thing for the legacy auto manufacturers to lobby for. Wouldn't cost much and would blunt Tesla's accelerating lead in EV adoption. Unlike Tesla, legacy auto cares little about advancing sustainable transport. So, let's take a model for something that works very well (Supercharger Network) and instead of copying/improving it, let's break it by forcing access with slow-ass charging cars and congesting the network. This can be considered a force multiplier. Plus lobbying is cheap. Much cheaper than building stuff.

So, to answer your question, as a DCFC LEAF and Tesla owner, I'd spend good money to defeat this silly idea. Silly, unless you want to slow down progress on charging infrastructure. Then it's brilliant.
 
sparky said:
This seems like a good thing for the legacy auto manufacturers to lobby for. Wouldn't cost much and would blunt Tesla's accelerating lead in EV adoption. Unlike Tesla, legacy auto cares little about advancing sustainable transport. So, let's take a model for something that works very well (Supercharger Network) and instead of copying/improving it, let's break it by forcing access with slow-ass charging cars and congesting the network. This can be considered a force multiplier. Plus lobbying is cheap. Much cheaper than building stuff.

So, to answer your question, as a DCFC LEAF and Tesla owner, I'd spend good money to defeat this silly idea. Silly, unless you want to slow down progress on charging infrastructure. Then it's brilliant.
Click to expand...

Interesting idea. Maybe we can get Big Oil to support this motion (to help LEAFs struggling to find QCs on the road, but really to defeat Tesla).
/s

On a serious note, it's bizarre to me to see Tesla owners and shareholders shaking in their boots at the idea of more people using the Tesla SC network.

Every additional Tesla sold is another Tesla that may take up a SC spot - and the current network just ain't gonna cut it if Tesla wants to sell 5-10 million EV sedans/SUVs and trucks every year. A few thousand pottering old Leafs charging with adapters at spare Superchargers is going to be the least of Tesla's worries when there are millions of Teslas treating their city's only Supercharger like one of their neighborhood's half dozen gas stations. :|

Never ceases to amaze that literally the only people who vehemently disagree just so happen to be owners of Tesla stock/cars. I thought the whole idea was to increase Tesla's gross margin by opening up new markets. :?
 
cwerdna said:
johnlocke said:
Chademo is dying a slow death in the US. EVGO is starting to install Tesla plugs on their equipment.
Click to expand...
By attaching a CHAdeMO to Tesla North American plug adapter on some of their DC FCs: https://www.evgo.com/tesla-charging/.

https://www.evgo.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/evgo-tesla-charging-connector-316x570.jpg has a larger/more visible pic.
Click to expand...
No, the newest units have a Tesla plug on one side and a CCS plug on the other side. Plugs directly into the Tesla charge port. Seems that they decided to try and get more of the Tesla charging business. After all there are more Tesla's than any other brand.
 
johnlocke said:
No, the newest units have a Tesla plug on one side and a CCS plug on the other side. Plugs directly into the Tesla charge port. Seems that they decided to try and get more of the Tesla charging business. After all there are more Tesla's than any other brand.
Click to expand...
Have pics, videos or Plugshare URLs of such locations?
 

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