Zythryn
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Re: POLL: Would you buy a $500 Tesla Supercharger or CCS -> CHAdeMO adapter? What would you risk to make it happen?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:43 am

coleafrado wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:04 pm
Zythryn wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:06 pm
No, I don’t think they can. I definitely don’t think they should, even if they could.
The other car companies were given the chance to join in, they didn’t. End of story.
It's morally wrong for non-Tesla drivers to have access to Tesla fast chargers, since we clearly have a say in Nissan/GM/Kia HQ's choices against partnering with Tesla, but it's totally fine for Tesla to offer adapters so CHAdeMO stations can be used by any Tesla owner. Interesting point of view!
I said nothing about "morally wrong".
However, I don't think there is anything wrong with any company making adapters to allow their customers to use AND PAY for use of a generic charger.

For example, some Nissan dealers didn't allow anyone but their customers to use their DC fast charging. I think that they are completely within their rights to do so if they paid for it. I think that choice is foolish, but it is their choice to make.

Tesla is paying for the hardware, installation, and maintenance for their chargers. I see nothing wrong with them requiring other companies to contribute to the buildout of the infrastructure to gain the benefit of the network.
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WetEV
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Re: POLL: Would you buy a $500 Tesla Supercharger or CCS -> CHAdeMO adapter? What would you risk to make it happen?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:08 am

Zythryn wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:43 am
Tesla is paying for the hardware, installation, and maintenance for their chargers. I see nothing wrong with them requiring other companies to contribute to the buildout of the infrastructure to gain the benefit of the network.
Would any sane company accept the control over a key resource by a competitor?

Tesla's "offer" was deflection. The point to proprietary infrastructure is creating of a monopoly.

Monopolies are evil.
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camasleaf
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Re: POLL: Would you buy a $500 Tesla Supercharger or CCS -> CHAdeMO adapter? What would you risk to make it happen?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:08 am

At this time, in my area, the CSS and Chademo infrastructure is barely used. The three fast chargers, EV America, in the parking lot of Camas Walmart have been there for almost two years now. I have only seen one car charging there. I charged once my 2011 LEAF and paid $8 for the 5kWh. On the other hand, many times, the supper chargers were all in use. So until the existing generic chargers see at least the same usage as the SC, Tesla should not allow other cars to charge in SC network. If generic charging pricing keeps the customers away, why should Tesla overload their SC network? Worst case,Tesla should charge the other cars substantially more than what they will pay on the generic networks. In a pinch they could use the SC, like me using the EV America and charge the LEAF at over $1 per kWh.

When Tesla made "the offer", their technology was far superior to any other charging tech. 120kW with a connector anybody can handle. Yes, my wife had to ask for help to plug the Chademo connector in the LEAF. And she is 5'7".
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: POLL: Would you buy a $500 Tesla Supercharger or CCS -> CHAdeMO adapter? What would you risk to make it happen?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:44 am

cwerdna wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:04 am
jlv wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:43 am
cwerdna wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:08 pm

By attaching a CHAdeMO to Tesla North American plug adapter on some of their DC FCs: https://www.evgo.com/tesla-charging/.
https://www.evgo.com/wp-content/uploads ... 16x570.jpg has a larger/more visible pic.
That web page also says "or the Tesla connectors available at select San Francisco EVgo stations". In the picture you link, you can see the middle is a Tesla connector (e.g., that station is not using a CHAdeMO adapter).
Yes it is. The CHAdeMO adapter is part of the box on the left side. https://insideevs.com/news/390154/video ... connector/ maybe will give you a better look. Ditto for https://www.plugshare.com/location/10827. I can try to find other Plugshare pics of EVgo SF locations later tonight.

Notice the CHAdeMO cable (coming out of the DC FC) and connector being plugged into the box on the left? The Tesla proprietary connector comes out of that box, which is the adapter.
I read an article that verifies this. It also stated that even a 100 KW EVgo station would still only have 50 KW to the Tesla plug due to limitations of the adapter.
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Re: POLL: Would you buy a $500 Tesla Supercharger or CCS -> CHAdeMO adapter? What would you risk to make it happen?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:46 am

WetEV wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:08 am
Would any sane company accept the control over a key resource by a competitor?

Tesla's "offer" was deflection. The point to proprietary infrastructure is creating of a monopoly.

Monopolies are evil.
But Monopolies are the American way.
It's all about wealth accumulation and the concentration of capital.
It's dog eat dog out there.
to those that have too much, more will be given to them, and
to whoever has very little, even that will be taken away from him.

Why is it that most all of the other civilized countries of the world
provide low or no-cost health care to their citizens?

coleafrado

Re: POLL: Would you buy a $500 Tesla Supercharger or CCS -> CHAdeMO adapter? What would you risk to make it happen?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:49 am

Zythryn wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:43 am
...
Tesla is paying for the hardware, installation, and maintenance for their chargers. I see nothing wrong with them requiring other companies to contribute to the buildout of the infrastructure to gain the benefit of the network.
Did, or does Tesla financially contribute to the charging networks built by EVgo, Nissan, GreenLots, Ionity, or Electrify America? If you're okay with Tesla owners using CHAdeMO adapters with "public" fast charging networks, then by extension you must be okay with everyone else using Supercharging adapters on the Tesla network.

I've hesitated to point this out, since it's so obvious, but nobody seems to acknowledge that Tesla isn't the only investor in chargers. And no, as a Tesla owner, you didn't pay for Superchargers. Tesla's shareholders and creditors did.
Last edited by coleafrado on Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

coleafrado

Re: POLL: Would you buy a $500 Tesla Supercharger or CCS -> CHAdeMO adapter? What would you risk to make it happen?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:51 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:44 am
I read an article that verifies this. It also stated that even a 100 KW EVgo station would still only have 50 KW to the Tesla plug due to limitations of the adapter.
Could you link the article? If anything, it's a software limitation to prevent overheating. Doubling the number of metal-on-metal contacts doubles the contact resistance and overall heating. Not that it's an unsolvable problem...

cwerdna
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Re: POLL: Would you buy a $500 Tesla Supercharger or CCS -> CHAdeMO adapter? What would you risk to make it happen?

Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:11 pm

https://shop.tesla.com/product/chademo-adapter has always been limited to 50 kW, so far.

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Zythryn
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Re: POLL: Would you buy a $500 Tesla Supercharger or CCS -> CHAdeMO adapter? What would you risk to make it happen?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:19 am

WetEV wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:08 am
Zythryn wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:43 am
Tesla is paying for the hardware, installation, and maintenance for their chargers. I see nothing wrong with them requiring other companies to contribute to the buildout of the infrastructure to gain the benefit of the network.
Would any sane company accept the control over a key resource by a competitor?

Tesla's "offer" was deflection. The point to proprietary infrastructure is creating of a monopoly.

Monopolies are evil.
I agree about Monopolies.
Your definition is faulty.

Tesla worked with the group that made the J1772 standard. They made certain proposals that were dismissed.
They didn't like the standard, so they made some adjustments which allow for a more functional and useful connector.

They then started building their own charging network on their own dime (yes, money was generated through sales of product as well as through capital raises.)
No other auto company has done the same. VW may come the closest with their court ordered restitution. However, it is a minor expenditure compared to the full cost of the network.

When I bought my Leaf, I couldn't use CCS chargers? Does that mean Nissan had a Monopoly? Or that the CCS network had a monopoly?

Are you arguing that Tesla should let other cars use their SC's for free? There is no POS payment system at super chargers. Or should Tesla be forced to install one, making their chargers less convenient, as well as adding to both the cost and maintenance, and increase overcrowding at their chargers??
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sparky
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Re: POLL: Would you buy a $500 Tesla Supercharger or CCS -> CHAdeMO adapter? What would you risk to make it happen?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:34 am

coleafrado wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:05 pm
.....
Never ceases to amaze that literally the only people who vehemently disagree just so happen to be owners of Tesla stock/cars. I thought the whole idea was to increase Tesla's gross margin by opening up new markets. :?
Tesla's whole mission is to advance the advent of sustainable transport. They are competing against ICE vehicles not other EVs.
Time to "refill" is a common marketing point for polluting gas/diesel cars and SUVs. Tesla knows this and are both expanding Superchargers and "speeding them up" so that fewer spaces are needed. I make a regular trip from SoCal to NorCal, 335 mi and stop once for 20 mins. From 10% to 80% my Model3 charges at a top speed of 1000mi/hr and average speed of >500mi/hr. It costs me $11.

That we've come to this level in 7 years is entirely due Tesla's vision and execution and a valuable marketing point for EVs in general and Tesla in particular. Less ICE cars will be on the road and as a result, less oil, less CO2 and less local air pollution.
I think that under the right circumstances (advancing sustainable transport), Tesla would allow another EV company access to their Superchargers. I would expect they would require a car to charge at >500mi/hr for most of the time. I think congesting Superchargers with slow-charging LEAFs, Bolts, eTrons etc is bad for the EV mission and forcing such access is skating to where the puck was not where it will be in the coming decade.

Tesla may check some of the boxes for a monopoly. Because of AGW, I don't ascribe to that metric as morally right/wrong. The purity test I have, if any, is that, as we're in a battle for the atmosphere/oceans to remain livable in the long term, I will support companies & governments that work now towards saving this planet; regardless of other issues I may have. I stopped supporting Nissan in 2016.

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