PrairieLEAF
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:58 am
Delivery Date: 04 Feb 2019
Location: Weld County, Colorado

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:27 am

Nice find! I haven't seen preowned Bolts going for less than $20k around here.

Those sound super fun to drive, too.
2016 LEAF S-30 w/QC "Lexie"

SageBrush
Posts: 5189
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:26 am

I agree - A lightly used Bolt for $16k is a fine purchase. That has a very good chance of providing today's level of functionality for 10 years, so about $130 a month.

The only significant downside to the car as an EV is its 50 kW charging but hopefully OP was aware, and is OK with that limit.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

EVornottoEV
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:54 am

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:44 am

SageBrush wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:26 am
I agree - A lightly used Bolt for $16k is a fine purchase. That has a very good chance of providing today's level of functionality for 10 years, so about $130 a month.

The only significant downside to the car as an EV is its 50 kW charging but hopefully OP was aware, and is OK with that limit.
Yeah the fast charge isn’t so fast but I rarely will use it.

cwerdna
Posts: 11013
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:26 pm

EVornottoEV wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:44 am
SageBrush wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:26 am
I agree - A lightly used Bolt for $16k is a fine purchase. That has a very good chance of providing today's level of functionality for 10 years, so about $130 a month.

The only significant downside to the car as an EV is its 50 kW charging but hopefully OP was aware, and is OK with that limit.
Yeah the fast charge isn’t so fast but I rarely will use it.
Bolt maxes out at 55 kW, not 50... but yeah, not so fast. I've used the exact unit at the location https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/wat ... -to-55-kw/ was filmed out and hit 54 to 55 kW. It was providing free juice for awhile but now they charge $.

And, if the battery's too cold, you'll get bitten by slowness too. :( I mentioned this at viewtopic.php?f=26&t=25212&p=581197&hil ... ld#p581197.

Fortunately, the liquid cooling I'm sure helped the guy at https://www.facebook.com/groups/1624427 ... 2338261869 who appeared to be making a roadtrip from WA state (Olympia area?) to AZ and back. He was doing plenty of DC FCs. I'd think Leaf would start getting heat throttled by the 2nd DC FC.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

buttuh
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:29 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Sep 2020

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:31 pm

I recently found a 2017 Leaf with 8 bars for cheap. Do you guys think it would be worth while to buy the car and have the battery replaced? Will it be replaced with another 30 kWh battery or the 40 kWh battery? Thanks.

SageBrush
Posts: 5189
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:25 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:26 pm
And, if the battery's too cold, you'll get bitten by slowness too.
What is the ~ average kW for a 20% -> 70% SoC DC charge on a not cold day ?

Edit -- never mind, I found a taper curve

Image
Last edited by SageBrush on Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 15330
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:28 pm

buttuh wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:31 pm
I recently found a 2017 Leaf with 8 bars for cheap. Do you guys think it would be worth while to buy the car and have the battery replaced? Will it be replaced with another 30 kWh battery or the 40 kWh battery? Thanks.
As long as you realize that it has to have had the BMS update and THEN have lost four bars, and that nothing is guaranteed (Nissan could change the policy or go bankrupt), it may well be worthwhile, because they are now installing 40kwh replacements, unless the local parts warehouse has a 30kwh in stock.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 11013
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:57 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:25 pm
cwerdna wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:26 pm
And, if the battery's too cold, you'll get bitten by slowness too.
What is the ~ average kW for a 20% -> 70% SoC DC charge on a not cold day ?j

Edit -- never mind, I found a taper curve

Image
Yep. https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/best- ... cfc.32809/ has more details on Bolt's taper curve on a high enough powered DC FC w/battery temp readings.

There is an update that I need to get applied to speed up DC fast charging at low temps (https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/chevr ... ing.35146/) but IIRC, it doesn't help that much. Also, 2020 Bolt has gentler tapers, not the sharp drops, but I hear that update to pre-2020 Bolts doesn't help with that. :(

Many folks have been pleading for GM to not ship future vehicles w/such slow DC FCing.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 5189
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:11 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:57 pm
Many folks have been pleading for GM to not ship future vehicles w/such slow DC FCing.
No kidding. It also strikes me as a very timid curve for a car with a liquid cooled battery.
I read this morning that the upcoming, new Gen "2021" Bolts to be released in a few months are expected to charge up to 200 kW. Call me skeptical, but 100 kW sustained up to 70% SoC would be most welcome and would do wonders for the car's utility and value.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
Posts: 11013
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Buying a used leaf in 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:29 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:11 pm
cwerdna wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:57 pm
Many folks have been pleading for GM to not ship future vehicles w/such slow DC FCing.
No kidding. It also strikes me as a very timid curve for a car with a liquid cooled battery.
I read this morning that the upcoming, new Gen "2021" Bolts to be released in a few months are expected to charge up to 200 kW. Call me skeptical, but 100 kW sustained up to 70% SoC would be most welcome and would do wonders for the car's utility and value.
I don't know the reason but I've heard the claims for the reason why Bolt's DC FC max rate is currently so slow is electrodes are too thick (example, search https://www.torquenews.com/8861/2020-ch ... ck-or-bust for thick).

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... 202017.pdf says
The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has a goal of reducing the production cost of a BEV battery to ultimately $80/kWh, increase the range of EVs to 300 miles, and decrease charge time to 15 minutes or less. In order to achieve this goal, a major effort within the battery research community has focused on increasing the energy density of the cell, which refers to the amount of energy stored in a specified weight or volume. Increasing electrode thickness is an effective way of improving the energy density of a cell.

However, thicker electrodes present several barriers to fast charging. As electrode thickness increases, charge times must also increase in order to avoid lithium plating. Lithium plating occurs when the charge rate exceeds the rate the lithium ions can intercalate into the crystal structure of the anode, which causes metallic lithium to form on the surface. Lithium plating can negatively affect performance of the electrode and lead to accelerated degradation of the battery, as well as impact cell safety. Therefore, it is thought that thinner electrodes are better suited for XFC applications, but this occurs with a tradeoff in increased battery cost. The analysis conducted in this report indicates that fast charge nearly doubles cell cost from $103/kWh to $196/kWh. The increase in cell cost is largely based on decreasing the anode thickness. Using thinner electrodes requires more cells to achieve the same energy density. Managing the heat generated in the battery during a charging event is also a potential barrier to XFC because temperatures in excess of 45°C will rapidly degrade battery lifetime.Higher temperatures can also introduce safety concerns as materials contained within the battery can begin to chemically and mechanically degrade.
I can't speak to what GM and LG Chem product planners had in mind in terms of goals, capabilities and tradeoffs (e.g. cost, density, safety, weight, manufacturing yields (i.e. what % of parts produces will be good vs. bad), etc.) I can only guess and base it upon the DC FC-capable cars and chargers that existed at the time + roadmap of the future wen they began planning and engineering work... From https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... production, it may have begun in 2011.

First delivery of Model S didn't happen until July 2012 and Supercharger network wasn't announced until a few months later.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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