SageBrush
Posts: 5189
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

PHEVs Fail to Reduce Emissions Compared to HEV

Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:09 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54170207

Bottom line: they are bought for perks and subsidies, and then not plugged in (enough to justify the support.)

Told ya
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2597
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: PHEVs Fail to Reduce Emissions Compared to HEV

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:15 pm

Yes, they are cleaner if they are plugged in for local trips. Unfortunately, most apparently don't bother even in Europe with higher fuel costs. Personally, I would plug in at home because it is much more convenient than going to gas stations. I doubt that I would search for public charging on trips since, at least in the USA, gasoline would be as cheap as public charging cost. Also, some of the early PHEV's had such small batteries and short EV range that it was probably not worth the trouble to plug in. Later models with larger batteries may do better in emissions studies.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

iPlug
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: PHEVs Fail to Reduce Emissions Compared to HEV

Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:46 pm

Perks and subsidies cause distortions in many places if not focused appropriately. Sadly there seem to be a large number of cases here.

When we had our '12 Plug-in Prius, we used it in 100% electric mode for my work commute, then 100% electric in the wife's Leaf for further errands such as soccer games and airport runs in farther out cities. Then when we had road trips, typically several hundred miles, we took the Plug-in Prius, usually getting 55-60mpg with the four of us onboard. Never put the car pool stickers on the Plug-in Prius and probably got close to the vehicle's maximum efficiency potential.
'19 Model 3 SR+, '19 Leaf SV, '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr prod.), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source HP, 3.70 UEF HPWH, Induction Cooktop, Variable Speed Pool Pump, Battery powered yard tools

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 15330
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: PHEVs Fail to Reduce Emissions Compared to HEV

Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:54 pm

Before the motor on our PIP became problematic, we still plugged it in before every trip, and the "lifetime" fuel economy average, including some long, cold Winters, stands at 66MPG. It was in the seventies for years. Now, if we keep it another Winter, it will be a local trip EV (with no heat) until the weather improves enough again for the ICE to run halfway well. I'd love to have her trade it in, and she is wavering, but I will miss the no-liftover cargo area.

My point, and I did have one, is that the PIP gets great fuel economy even when not plugged in - substantially more than the regular Prius. So I think that PHEVs like the Volt and Outlander, which get mediocre fuel economy if not plugged in, have skewed the data to tar all PHEVs with the same dirty brush.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

camasleaf
Posts: 661
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Camas, WA

Re: PHEVs Fail to Reduce Emissions Compared to HEV

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:19 pm

Our Clarity is on the second gas tank this year, and is still full. My main concern with the car is the gas going bad. Close to 18000 miles since the beginning of 2018 and I do not believe we filed the 7 gallon tank more than a dozen times. Half of the gas was used during two 1000 miles each trips.
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 92000 miles 59%SOH
2018 Honda Clarity PHEV
2014 Model S P85 87000 miles 250 miles range
5.7kW DC Solar System

SageBrush
Posts: 5189
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: PHEVs Fail to Reduce Emissions Compared to HEV

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:27 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:54 pm
My point, and I did have one, that the PIP gets great fuel economy even when not plugged in - substantially more than the regular Prius.
The EPA disagrees with you, as do I from experience with 3 Toyota Prius HEV and one Toyota Prius Prime.

iPlug is right, subsidies have caused distortions with PHEVs. I hope the authorities catch on and give subsidies by MPG and tailpipe emissions rather than tech. PHEV will have to be treated mostly as an ICE.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 15330
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: PHEVs Fail to Reduce Emissions Compared to HEV

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:30 pm

The EPA disagrees with you, as do I from experience with 3 Toyota Prius HEV and one Toyota Prius Prime.
The Prime is not the PIP. It was common knowledge in the Toyota Prius PHEV users group that the PIP got better fuel economy than the Prius II even when not charged. I had suggested the opposite because of the additional weight, was corrected by the group, and our subsequent experience bore out what they had said. The lithium pack in the PIP is able to store substantially more energy from regeneration than is the NiMH pack, and that makes a difference. It must be a case of how the car is used, and how the EPA test cycle differs from how a lot of PIP owners drive. This also suggests that Toyota could improve the economy of the Prius just by replacing the NiMH packs with lithium batteries, at least in milder climates.

I don't know if your experience with the Prime is typical or unusual. Since my housemate is considering a Prime (her range anxiety is currently at war with he newly acquired distaste for ICEs) as well as a Leaf, I may look into it a bit. Or not, because she is religious about always plugging in anyway.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 5189
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: PHEVs Fail to Reduce Emissions Compared to HEV

Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:43 am

camasleaf wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:19 pm
Our Clarity is on the second gas tank this year, and is still full. My main concern with the car is the gas going bad. Close to 18000 miles since the beginning of 2018 and I do not believe we filed the 7 gallon tank more than a dozen times. Half of the gas was used during two 1000 miles each trips.
There is no doubt that a PHEV has the potential to be a smart, environmental car. You use it as intended; I used our Prime that way. In fact, the Prius Prime was outstanding for us. I used it for my work commute of 86 miles r/t in 4 season Colorado and frequent 250 mile trips each way to New Mexico and ended up with ~ 100 mpg lifetime.

However, The point of the study is that overall PHEVs about match HEVs in tailpipe emissions because owners like us are the tiny minority. You and I are anecdotes.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

RonSwanson
Forum Supporter
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:13 pm

Re: PHEVs Fail to Reduce Emissions Compared to HEV

Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:57 am

I picked up a RAV4 Prime a couple weeks ago and will definitely be different from those in the survey. I'll do probably 95%+ EV driving only after the 600 mile break-in period. But yes, the majority aren't going to plug-in much and just buy the plug-in model since it costs (after rebates etc) the same as the non plug-in models. The plug-ins are usually more loaded / optioned as well, so that's another incentive.

SageBrush
Posts: 5189
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: PHEVs Fail to Reduce Emissions Compared to HEV

Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:06 am

RonSwanson wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:57 am
I picked up a RAV4 Prime a couple weeks ago and will definitely be different from those in the survey. I'll do probably 95%+ EV driving only after the 600 mile break-in period. But yes, the majority aren't going to plug-in much and just buy the plug-in model since it costs (after rebates etc) the same as the non plug-in models. The plug-ins are usually more loaded / optioned as well, so that's another incentive.
What would you have bought without the PHEV incentive ?

By the way, the RAV Prime has the potential to be an outstanding environmental and value choice. I thought about buying one also, until I realized that the ICE would be useless in our household. You might also find, as we did with our Prime and many others do with their PHEVs, that the daily EV operation reminds you every day just how much ICE sucks. If you find yourself trying to avoid ICE use no matter how trivial, you have fallen into the PHEV trap.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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