Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

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jlsoaz

Well-known member
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Location
Southern Arizona, USA
This is in my view a good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf. It doesn't seem to have the bigger battery pack, but I like several things here including that the tester gives a point of view from the American Southwest, and that they do not pull punches in the end. Their conclusions are similar to mine nine years ago. My added comment is: goodness, Nissan is taking a long time to get to bring the Ariya to market.

"....Nissan should consider ending LEAF production if it can’t make a third generation of the vehicle that doesn’t have these problems. It needs to have liquid cooling, more than 200 miles of range for the bottom model (to make it to the next station consistently), and a CCS plug for the US market. Anything short of that is not only bad for the company, but bad for EV adoption in general.

"I’m financially stuck with the thing for now and will keep using it around town, but that doesn’t mean I’m happy with its limitations...."

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/04/23/nissan-leaf-still-not-suitable-for-us-road-trips-even-with-rapidgate-software-update/
Nissan LEAF Still Not Suitable For US Road Trips, Even With #Rapidgate Software Update
By Jennifer Sensiba
Published 2 days ago
 
It might be hard-hitting for owners new to the Leaf, but those of us who have been driving it for nearly a decade, it seems to be more about poor planning on her part. Not because she is ignorant, but because she may not have access to the same information we have here and there is still a lot of mis-information about the Leaf floating around in Facebook, Twitter, etc.

I've driven trips twice & triple, the distance she was driving in a Gen 1 Leaf in the early days. I planned ahead and used some knowledge of physics to make the trip by not driving 70 MPH on cruise and following the speed limit if it was lower than 70 MPH (65, 60, etc.) I also had LeafSpy to avoid the distraction of the GOM and mileage. I could see exactly how much power was left, I knew where it would turtle mode, I knew where it would shutdown the vehicle and adjusted my driving style. I knew what the elevation difference was going to be. All of that planning worked and allowed me to make a non-stop drive from charger to charger. I didn't worry about the speed of other vehicles and even at lower speeds, I would still pass plenty of other people driving slower.

So while I thank her for the time to write out the details of the trip, I could have done her trip in her car without any of the stress she wrote about with better planning. Doing a successful trip with no hiccups is not as exciting I know.
 
I've read her articles since she bought the LEAF a couple of years ago. Even though she writes for Electrek, her POV is that of an enthusiastic EV adopter who has little technical knowledge. Since 99% of the USA populace would make her mistakes I accept her negative experiences as well intentioned albeit somewhat avoidable. And it's not like she tried to drive cross country in 110F heat while towing a boat. She tried to drive to the next town and back in the Spring knowing that she had access to L3 charging.

Missed mitigations aside, the LEAF is severely hobbled. I know it, and she is doing a service to the community by letting others know it too.
 
Instead of damning the car for a mistake that she made in choosing it, she should be telling people that the 40kwh Leaf is a great car for local use in moderate climates, but not for road trips or hotter climates. Demanding that all versions of the car have a 200+ mile range is essentially telling Nissan to do her thinking for her.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Instead of damning the car for a mistake that she made in choosing it, she should be telling people that the 40kwh Leaf is a great car for local use in moderate climates, but not for road trips or hotter climates.
I mostly share your opinion but I'm well aware that Nissan sold the car under false pretenses so I understand some of her projected dissatisfaction.

--
Tangentially, 3 people were interested in buying my LEAF the other week. One I told not to bother checking out the car because it would not make the trip back to her home, and two others lost interest after learning from me that the battery relied on exterior case air cooling. Moreover, I can only think of ONE person among the LEAF owners I have talked to who was aware of the pack's limitations. The LEAF is a widely misunderstood car and Nissan shares a not small part of the blame.
 
I agree that Nissan salescreatures have misrepresented (and lied about) the Leaf. It is, however, never a good idea to do one's pre-car-buying research by talking to automotive salespeople. The car buying public needs to wake up to two facts: car dealerships are a form of government-tolerated organized crime, and buying a car should be as much a cerebral activity as a glandular one. This, I think, is why so many people prefer Consumer Reports and similar organizations: not because they are the best sources for all kinds of car-related data, but because they aren't paid shills for the auto industry - they are actually trying to inform you rather than to sell you a car.
 
SageBrush said:
I wasn't talking about car salespeople, but about Nissan itself

True enough, but AFAIK ALL of the big auto manufacturers are Evil Bastards. Possibly excepting the South Koreans, but that's mainly because I don't know enough about them.
 
LeftieBiker said:
SageBrush said:
I wasn't talking about car salespeople, but about Nissan itself
True enough, but AFAIK ALL of the big auto manufacturers are Evil Bastards.
Hard to argue with that although there is a very broad range of evil.
GM and VW are the worst scum possible
Tesla, Honda, Subaru and Toyota are usually pretty reasonable

I personally don't view Nissan as particularly evil, so much as professional assholes. By that I mean Nissan screws its customers as a matter of corporate policy, but they do not lie, cheat, or act inhumanely or act anti-socially. In the case of the LEAF they firmly straddled the line between false advertising and caveat emptor.
 
Toyota knows that the Gen III Prius is a time bomb, with the ICE becoming unreliable after about 6 years - sooner if driven a lot of miles. The emission control system allows oil to build up in the oil separator, and there is no sensor to warn when the pressure threatens to blow the head gasket. They have never acknowledged it, just as they haven't acknowledged that several of their motors over the years have had issues with sludge buildup and/or high oil consumption. They are the pinnacle of Japanese Corporate arrogance. My housemate used to love Toyota, and I respected them, but after years of a Camry that leaked raw gas from the vapor recovery system, followed by a Prius II that soaked its carpets with water, followed the a PIP that ran on three cylinders much of the time for the last two years we had it, she was finally convinced that EVs are the way to go. Ironically, she now drives a Leaf. For us, the Gen II Leaf is a very good car.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Toyota knows that the Gen III Prius is a time bomb, with the ICE becoming unreliable after about 6 years - sooner if driven a lot of miles. The emission control system allows oil to build up in the oil separator, and there is no sensor to warn when the pressure threatens to blow the head gasket. They have never acknowledged it, just as they haven't acknowledged that several of their motors over the years have had issues with sludge buildup and/or high oil consumption.
Maybe so. I stopped being active on Priuschat years ago.

Someone I know with a gen 3 (2011 model year per his Priuschat profile) and who I'm FB friends with said in Feb 2019 "First major repair on my Prius after 185k of trouble-free miles. The headgasket failed and caused coolant to leak into cyl #2." He does a ton of DIY work and seems to have a side gig or something of working on cars of all makes and models.

I'm not sure what kind of crazy driving he does but he said in late Feb 2021 (pointing to his old post): "2 years and 30K miles later (now at 215K). The head gasket repair is holding up well. Car is running great!"
 
I don't think that any EV manufacturer should be permitted to sell passively cooled EVs in hot climates - it's unethical.

However, it's unrealistic to expect any car manufacturer to voluntarily remove a car from certain markets for ethical reasons. Big companies disregard ethical considerations whenever it suits them.

Instead, state legislators should step in to protect consumers - that's their job. AFAIK, excessive heat caused degradation, and heat related performance issues, should be covered by lemon laws.
 
I would see it more as a barrier to future technology, especially if battery chemistry evolves the point that an active cooling system is no longer necessary and passive works fine. Let the free market dictate the manufactures, not the government.

alozzy said:
I don't think that any EV manufacturer should be permitted to sell passively cooled EVs in hot climates - it's unethical.

However, it's unrealistic to expect any car manufacturer to voluntarily remove a car from certain markets for ethical reasons. Big companies disregard ethical considerations whenever it suits them.

Instead, state legislators should step in to protect consumers - that's their job. AFAIK, excessive heat caused degradation, and heat related performance issues, should be covered by lemon laws.
 
I am probably in the minority, but I appreciate that Nissan developed the LEAF and was willing to sell it in Arizona when first introduced (and continues to sell it here). With passive air cooling of the battery pack, it is not suitable for multiple DC quick charges in a day in my climate, but I did not buy it for that. I prefer the simplicity and reduced energy consumption of passive cooling. Also, I routinely park at my office or the airport for extended time and the car keeps its 12V battery charged and loses very little SOC from the main battery even when parked for a month or more (regardless of ambient temperature). A couple weekends ago I drove over 100 miles on Saturday and 209.5 miles on Sunday without using DCQC. Most of those miles were keeping up with traffic on the urban freeways (speed limit of 65 mi/hr which is routinely exceeded). The highest battery temperature was 90.6 F at the end of the day Saturday and 109.9 F at the end of the day Sunday. There was never any power or regeneration limitation.

I have read many of the EV articles written by Jennifer Sensiba. She lived in the Phoenix area when the car was new and she used it as a ride-share driver (Lyft or Uber). She also took some highway trips so her car has likely seen many DCQC sessions and now has 70k miles.
 
knightmb said:
I would see it more as a barrier to future technology, especially if battery chemistry evolves the point that an active cooling system is no longer necessary and passive works fine. Let the free market dictate the manufactures, not the government.

alozzy said:
I don't think that any EV manufacturer should be permitted to sell passively cooled EVs in hot climates - it's unethical.

However, it's unrealistic to expect any car manufacturer to voluntarily remove a car from certain markets for ethical reasons. Big companies disregard ethical considerations whenever it suits them.

Instead, state legislators should step in to protect consumers - that's their job. AFAIK, excessive heat caused degradation, and heat related performance issues, should be covered by lemon laws.

I disagree, this is a clear case where consumer protection is needed. If Nissan was influenced by ethical considerations, they would have either added active cooling or they would have decided to no longer sell the LEAF in hot climates - they did neither. It's not like this was a surprise for the 2018 LEAF - 7 prior model years proved that the LEAF is not viable in hot climates.

As to your point about battery technology progressing to the point where passively cooled packs will perform no worse in hot climates, that seems like a moot point since almost all EV manufacturers already use active cooling.

Further to my point, lemon laws are supposed to offer recourse to consumers when products "repeatedly fail to meet standards of quality and performance". I think a degraded LEAF pack, or one that's over heating due to consecutive DC chargers during hot conditions, should qualify, without having to include wording with respect to passive cooling.
 
Having a bunch of tech heads here in the forum, we all like to nitpick the vehicle and the company. It's just fun! :lol:

But, I have a lot of friends who still own their 2013, 2014, 2015 Leaf across various trim levels and have been very happy with them. Especially now after so many of years of basically no maintenance (compared to what they were use to with routine stuff on the gas vehicles they owned before). The difference for them, I was their source of information before they bought. I didn't try to be a salesman, I told exactly what to expect for limitations on driving, temperature, cold weather, battery degradation, etc. When they had the first winter and range dropped 10%, instead of complaining that the vehicle sucks, they accepted it as more of a "knew it was coming" thing and didn't stress over it. Adjusted driving habits to work with it. Unfortunately, a salesman at a dealership will say just about anything to make you want to buy the vehicle and they don't even know much about the Leaf to begin with, making things worse for people that do buy with high expectations or weekend road-trips across the country. :?

GerryAZ said:
I am probably in the minority, but I appreciate that Nissan developed the LEAF and was willing to sell it in Arizona when first introduced (and continues to sell it here). With passive air cooling of the battery pack, it is not suitable for multiple DC quick charges in a day in my climate, but I did not buy it for that. I prefer the simplicity and reduced energy consumption of passive cooling. Also, I routinely park at my office or the airport for extended time and the car keeps its 12V battery charged and loses very little SOC from the main battery even when parked for a month or more (regardless of ambient temperature). A couple weekends ago I drove over 100 miles on Saturday and 209.5 miles on Sunday without using DCQC. Most of those miles were keeping up with traffic on the urban freeways (speed limit of 65 mi/hr which is routinely exceeded). The highest battery temperature was 90.6 F at the end of the day Saturday and 109.9 F at the end of the day Sunday. There was never any power or regeneration limitation.

I have read many of the EV articles written by Jennifer Sensiba. She lived in the Phoenix area when the car was new and she used it as a ride-share driver (Lyft or Uber). She also took some highway trips so her car has likely seen many DCQC sessions and now has 70k miles.
 
GerryAZ said:
I am probably in the minority, but I appreciate that Nissan developed the LEAF and was willing to sell it in Arizona when first introduced (and continues to sell it here).

Nissan gets a pass for the first few years, as it's possible that they were genuinely nieve about accelerated battery degradation in hot climates.

However, continuing to sell a passively cooled EV in hot climates is unethical, especially when they don't make it clear to prospective buyers that accelerated pack degradation due to heat is predictable and expected.

Even if Nissan halted sales in hot states, that wouldn't prevent consumers in those states from importing them from elsewhere...
 
I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but I think it would make it too easy to abuse against other EV manufactures, not just Nissan. First, you would have to establish what a standard of quality is for an EV that everyone can agree on. Even vehicles with active cooling systems can overheat the batteries by abusive drivers. They could claim the same that because they can't drive at +120 MPH before the battery overheats, the car must be broken. Also, there have already been class action lawsuits nearly a decade ago for exactly the same thing related to battery life issues. What is the government really going to do that will protect the consumer?

alozzy said:
I disagree, this is a clear case where consumer protection is needed. If Nissan was influenced by ethical considerations, they would have either added active cooling or they would have decided to no longer sell the LEAF in hot climates - they did neither. It's not like this was a surprise for the 2018 LEAF - 7 prior model years proved that the LEAF is not viable in hot climates.

As to your point about battery technology progressing to the point where passively cooled packs will perform no worse in hot climates, that seems like a moot point since almost all EV manufacturers already use active cooling.

Further to my point, lemon laws are supposed to offer recourse to consumers when products "repeatedly fail to meet standards of quality and performance". I think a degraded LEAF pack, or one that's over heating due to consecutive DC chargers during hot conditions, should qualify, without having to include wording with respect to passive cooling.
 
What is the government really going to do that will protect the consumer?

Hold EV manufacturers accountable for the flaws that they knowing made to products they sold - no different than with ICE cars that have engine or transmission design flaws that result in premature failure, poor fuel economy, etc.

Why should EVs get a pass on such egregious flaws? Passively cooled packs simply aren't adequate in hot climates, it's not really debatable at this point.

I was shocked when Nissan didn't incorporate active cooling in the 2018 MY. While a passively cooled pack works OK in the PNW where I live, Nissan should be making a robust product that's suitable for all climates in which they want to sell it.

I should add that my 2013 SV has so far been a great car. I personally don't have any cause for complaint...

However, that doesn't mean that I feel no empathy for someone who, in good faith, purchases a new LEAF and expects the car to perform as advertised, for at least the full warranty period. Consumers should not be expected to be EV experts when purchasing a new EV - products and manufactures should be expected to offer quality products that perform as advertised
 
I am a little sick of the Nissan bashing here because Nissan and my dealer have treated me fairly. The salesman I purchased my cars from has recently retired, but he drove a 2011 LEAF and was careful to explain the limitations of the vehicle each time. Nissan retroactively provided a 5-year, 60,000-mile capacity warranty on my 2011 long before I received information from the lawyers regarding the class action lawsuit. Later, Nissan EV Customer Service called me to ask me to take the car to my dealer for additional testing so they could start the battery replacement process. I opted out of the class action lawsuit and would probably still be driving the 2011 if it had not met its early demise (would probably have put a 62 kWh battery in by now).

The 62 kWh battery in my 2019 is doing well after over 30k miles so far. The battery in the 2015 was much better than the original or replacement in the 2011 and the 2019 is doing much better than the 2015. Actively-cooled batteries in the Ford Focus EV were not significantly better than the LEAF batteries in my climate. That may be why Ford made it difficult to buy them here even though they were technically available. Many other manufacturers chose not to sell their EV's here even with active cooling.
 
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