ztanos
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Re: 100 Mile and 200 km Club, plus Longest Drive (unrefueled

Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:20 pm

N1ghtrider wrote:
mkjayakumar wrote:8 months of ownership and only 5k miles ?
I have had the LEAF 7 months and 6 days. The first few months I have been putting miles "in the bank" because I have a lease and was burned by excess miles once. My goal now is to drive the LEAF 1000 miles per month to get the most value I can out of it, which is 33 miles per day, and keep the other 2,000 miles in the bank for unexpected needs. I only drive 18 miles roundtrip to work and back a day, with a couple of miles to the store or other errands. When the weather is nice I often ride my Harley to work instead of taking the LEAF. I have trips longer than 50 miles each way once a week or so and use my ICE (honda civic hybrid) for those, unless I will be stopped at the destination for more than a couple of hours and can recharge enough to get back.
Now Harley needs an electric motorcycle with a majorly loud speaker to give that Harley rumble.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: 100 Mile and 200 km Club, plus Longest Drive (unrefueled

Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:30 am

RegGuheert wrote:Well, we have finally managed to achieve over 100 miles on a single charge. I must say that achieving that around here is somewhat of a PITA!
Congrats, Mr. 34.

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
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Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: 100 Mile and 200 km Club, plus Longest Drive (unrefueled

Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:13 am

December 31, 2011, with 577 miles on the odometer:
N1ghtrider wrote:111 miles today on a single charge 8-) with 5.9 m/kwh. 50 of those miles were Thursday and Friday and the other 61 today. It was all city streets at 65-75 degrees, no a/c. No hills in Miami for regen. I hit "low battery" at about 102 miles and never hit "very low battery." I will post a picture of the odometer if someone can walk me through how to post it (I am a computer idiot).
July 21, 2012, with 5129 miles on the odometer:
N1ghtrider wrote:N1ghtrider's 14th time to reach 100 miles or better on a single charge. With this accomplishment (and my 3 times beating 200 km) I am temporarily retiring from the quest to beat these marks. I will get back in the hunt when someone else breaks 10 charges of 100-plus miles or meets my three 200 km-plus record.

Image

I hit lbw at 84.4 miles; never hit vlbw. I lost the last charge bar at 90 miles.
Assuming the LBW mile reports are accurate and efficiency was the same after LBW, it seems that N1ghtrider's LEAF has lost about 16% of its capacity from full to LBW in the last 6.5 months/4500 miles. And this is true even though the temperature was probably 20F warmer for this last report.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

N1ghtrider
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Location: South Florida (Miami/Coral Gables)

Re: 100 Mile and 200 km Club, plus Longest Drive (unrefueled

Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:05 pm

I question that amount of loss of efficiency. On the December trip I had 5.9 m/kwh (per dash) and 5.8 on my most recent 100-mile charge. I think it was mainly the use of air conditioner for part of this charge.
Roy D. Wasson (N1ghtrider)
Member 100 Mile Club & 200 km Club in 2012 SV & 2013 SL
Board Certified Appellate Attorney
28 W. Flagler St. Suite 600
Miami, FL 33130
(305) 372-5220 ofc
(305) 519-8897 cell
roy@wassonandassociates.com

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DaveEV
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Re: 100 Mile and 200 km Club, plus Longest Drive (unrefueled

Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:45 am

N1ghtrider wrote:I question that amount of loss of efficiency. On the December trip I had 5.9 m/kwh (per dash) and 5.8 on my most recent 100-mile charge. I think it was mainly the use of air conditioner for part of this charge.
Not efficiency, but capacity.

I went through all these posts and collected the data from your 100+ mile runs below.

Note that 4 months ago, you were getting LBW at 90+ miles when averaging 5.8 mi/kWh - but this last time you only made it 84.4 miles to LBW. 16% might be a bit much, but it sure looks like you have lost some capacity between 100% and LBW. Hard to say for sure with just one data-point, and who knows what will happen if you drive it to VLBW or lower.

Code: Select all

12/31/11 111.0 mi 5.9 mi/kWh LBW 102 mi  no VLBW                 18.8 kWh used
 1/05/12 103.1 mi 5.4 mi/kWh LBW 93.3 mi  VLBW?                   19.1 kWh used
 1/13/12 125.4 mi 6.1 mi/kWh LBW 103 mi   VLBW 114 mi             20.5 kWh used
 1/22/12 130.1 mi 6.4 mi/kWh LBW 105.8 mi VLBW 121 mi             20.4 kWh used
 2/17/12 126.1 mi 6.1 mi/kWh LBW 98.1 mi  VLBW 114.3 mi TTL 126.0 20.7 kWh used
 2/26/12 102.0 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 92.3 mi  no VLBW                 17.6 kWh used
 3/03/12 105.1 mi 5.7 mi/kWh LBW ? GOM 6  no VLBW                 18.5 kWh used
 3/10/12 101.3 mi 5.8 mi/kWH LBW ? GOM 8  no VLBW                 17.5 kWh used
 3/24/12 106.3 mi 5.7 mi/kWH LBW 93.2     no VLBW                 18.7 kWh used
 3/29/12 106.2 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 91.3     VLBW 105.7              18.3 kWh used
 4/06/12 111.3 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 91.8     VLBW 108.9              19.2 kWh used
 4/11/12 107.3 mi 6.0 mi/kWh LBW 96.0     no VLBW                 17.9 kWh used
 7/21/12 100.0 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 84.4     no VLBW                 17.2 kWh used

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
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Re: 100 Mile and 200 km Club, plus Longest Drive (unrefueled

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:43 am

drees wrote:
N1ghtrider wrote:I question that amount of loss of efficiency. On the December trip I had 5.9 m/kwh (per dash) and 5.8 on my most recent 100-mile charge. I think it was mainly the use of air conditioner for part of this charge.
Not efficiency, but capacity.

I went through all these posts and collected the data from your 100+ mile runs below.

Note that 4 months ago, you were getting LBW at 90+ miles when averaging 5.8 mi/kWh - but this last time you only made it 84.4 miles to LBW. 16% might be a bit much, but it sure looks like you have lost some capacity between 100% and LBW. Hard to say for sure with just one data-point, and who knows what will happen if you drive it to VLBW or lower.

Code: Select all

12/31/11 111.0 mi 5.9 mi/kWh LBW 102 mi  no VLBW                 18.8 kWh used
 1/05/12 103.1 mi 5.4 mi/kWh LBW 93.3 mi  VLBW?                   19.1 kWh used
 1/13/12 125.4 mi 6.1 mi/kWh LBW 103 mi   VLBW 114 mi             20.5 kWh used
 1/22/12 130.1 mi 6.4 mi/kWh LBW 105.8 mi VLBW 121 mi             20.4 kWh used
 2/17/12 126.1 mi 6.1 mi/kWh LBW 98.1 mi  VLBW 114.3 mi TTL 126.0 20.7 kWh used
 2/26/12 102.0 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 92.3 mi  no VLBW                 17.6 kWh used
 3/03/12 105.1 mi 5.7 mi/kWh LBW ? GOM 6  no VLBW                 18.5 kWh used
 3/10/12 101.3 mi 5.8 mi/kWH LBW ? GOM 8  no VLBW                 17.5 kWh used
 3/24/12 106.3 mi 5.7 mi/kWH LBW 93.2     no VLBW                 18.7 kWh used
 3/29/12 106.2 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 91.3     VLBW 105.7              18.3 kWh used
 4/06/12 111.3 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 91.8     VLBW 108.9              19.2 kWh used
 4/11/12 107.3 mi 6.0 mi/kWh LBW 96.0     no VLBW                 17.9 kWh used
 7/21/12 100.0 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 84.4     no VLBW                 17.2 kWh used
Note that the energy use from "100%" to LBW from this table, seems to have declined ~4% between new at 12/31/11 and April 2012, and then over 10% additionally, by the time of the July report.

This looks to me reflect much the same experience of declining battery capacity many others saw, relatively stable gid counts and no bar capacity losses, until rapid gid count drops, and multiple bar loss reports began, this spring.
RegGuheert
...Assuming the LBW mile reports are accurate and efficiency was the same after LBW, it seems that N1ghtrider's LEAF has lost about 16% of its capacity from full to LBW in the last 6.5 months/4500 miles. And this is true even though the temperature was probably 20F warmer for this last report.
Or, perhaps, because the temperature was much warmer.

Lower capacity at lower temperatures is expected, due to battery capacity.

Lower "capacity" in high-temperature conditions, that is the amount of charge the battery pack can accept at higher temperatures, has been anecdotally reported many times. Unfortunately, TickTock's log of his gid count last year, is the only report of significant "recovery" of long-term capacity, during cooler weather. And (unless someone relocates their LEAF to a cooler climate) if we see any future reports of battery "capacity" increasing, they probably won't happen until Winter.

The only explanation I've seen proposed for lower charge levels at higher temperatures, and the ability of the battery to recover "capacity" once lower temperatures arrive, is limitation of charge level by the LEAF BMS under high temperature conditions, rather than actual degradation of the battery, causing reduced capacity.

It is interesting that capacity reduction in Miami might be this great, even though it looks like average temperatures are ~20 F lower there, than in Phoenix.

More reports like this from "moderate" climate LEAFs, would be further evidence, IMO, that either the LEAF battery is extremely susceptible to degradation, even in relatively moderate temperatures, or there is at least some BMS operation, adding "noise" to the capacity results, shown by gids and capacity bars.
no condition is permanent

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TonyWilliams
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Re: 100 Mile and 200 km Club, plus Longest Drive (unrefueled

Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:53 am

First, efficiencies (miles per kWh) are reflected with heater and air conditioning use. Secondly, a warmer battery has more energy than a cold one. Therefore, a warm battery LEAF with the same 5.8 miles per kWh (regardless of climate control use or no use) will have a longer range than a cold battery one at the same 5.8 miles/mKw. That battery capacity change with temperature is reflected in the range chart at 1% loss of capacity per 4F below 70F, and 1% increase per 8F above 70F.

Like several of us (myself included) in moderate coastal California who have reported similar range reduction to Nightrider's far hotter Miami based car, my car was solidly putting out expected range until just before one year, when it dropped like a rock to about 13% loss in range (NOT a GoM number, but Gid count backed up with ACTUAL miles driven).

Now that I have two LEAFs, and I've been gone for much of the past several months, that car doesn't get driven much (compared to 2000 miles per month previous). Degradation seems to have stabilized at 13%, but then we will only know in another year.

Edit: capacity was at 18% reduction a few days after this post, and falling fast, so I unloaded the 2011 LEAF car. I still have a 2012 lease car (that I drove from Mexico to Canada June 12-20, 2012).
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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ebill3
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Re: 100 Mile and 200 km Club, plus Longest Drive (unrefueled

Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:54 pm

Finally!

Anticipating the need, I hit the override for 100% charge yesterday. Turned out I only drove 52 miles, but with an all time high (for me, that is) of 5.8 miles/kWh. So decided to go for it today.

Low battery at 98.4, VLB at 111.2, chickened out and drove 1 mile to home for a total of 112.2.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: 100 Mile and 200 km Club, plus Longest Drive (unrefueled

Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:14 pm

ebill3 wrote:Finally!

Anticipating the need, I hit the override for 100% charge yesterday. Turned out I only drove 52 miles, but with an all time high (for me, that is) of 5.8 miles/kWh. So decided to go for it today.

Low battery at 98.4, VLB at 111.2, chickened out and drove 1 mile to home for a total of 112.2.
Very strong, Mr. 35. Looking forward to your 200km announcement !

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JeremyW
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Re: 100 Mile Club & 200 km Club, plus Longest Drive (unrefue

Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:19 pm

I did it! And I didn't even get to turtle. The trick is to start on a mountain with nearly a full charge, then drive down it. ;)

I also had 7 TB the whole way. :cry:

Jeremy
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Former 2012 SL leasee 6/23/12 - 9/23/15
Former Fit EV leasee.
Now driving Spark EV and Model 3.

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