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RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:19 pm

I think it is fully engrained in the minds of dealership employees to "fill up" vehicles whenever they come on the lot, both when they are new and when they come in for service. I don't think this was a big issue last year when nearly every LEAF manufactured was quickly received by a customer who had been awaiting its arrival for months.

But now sales are slow and LEAFs are starting to accumulate on dealer lots in the middle of a hot summer. And I expect that practically every one of them is sitting on dealer lots at full charge.

Today, I took our LEAF in for service tomorrow. I thought they would probably charge it up tomorrow during service in the 95F heat, but I figured I would pick it up quickly to reduce the SOC. But I decided to check the car this evening and they have already fully charged it. I thought about dissipating some of the charge with the climate control, but it is connected to the EVSE, so that won't work. If they had simply hooked it up and not pressed the button, it would charge to 80% in the early morning. Or, better yet, they could simply not charge it at all.

Anyway, it seems that in light of the fact that these cars already have a pretty limited battery capacity and in hot climates some LEAFs are losing capacity at an alarming rate, dealerships need to take better care of the batteries of LEAFs in their care. Unfortunately, they do not know any better. In fact, I'm convinced they think this is the best practice and see it as a service to their customers.

So how does this get changed? IMO, Nissan should have an extensive education program for their dealership employees to convince them to change their behavior in regards to EV charging. As it is today, Nissan doesn't make it easy for them to take proper care of the cars. If a dealership wants to charge a LEAF, the button is their only convenient option, so it is a little hard to imagine them doing anything different than what they do today. Perhaps the real solution is to add a new "storage" charging mode to their EVs in the future and have it be the default for new cars. This mode could override the button so that it charges to 60% SOC or even something a little lower.

So what do you think is needed to put a halt to the needless LEAF-torture?
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

91040
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 06 May 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:58 pm

If the dealers had L3 chargers, they could store the cars at the ideal SOC percentage (30%?) yet be able to get them ready for a test ride or delivery in 30 minutes.
1st Capacity Bar loss 30k mi 16mo
2nd- 49k mi 25.5mo 51.5Ah
3rd- 73k mi 36.5mo 46.9Ah
4th- 86.5k mi 43mo 42.6Ah
5th- 101k mi 50.5mo 38.4Ah, end 36.1Ah
New Battery 9/28/15 104k mi 66.1Ah
1st- 160.5k mi 34mo 54Ah
2nd- 184.4k mi 53mo 49Ah

Herm
Posts: 3765
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 3:08 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Aug 2012
Location: Timbuktu, Mali

Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:13 pm

A software revision that automatically discharges the battery down to 80% if the car has sat for 3 hours at 100%.

Volusiano
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:41 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:13 pm

In my opinion, first of all, Nissan doesn't care, and the dealerships don't care, because these bad charging practices only have long-term effects on the batteries, which is not immediately recognizable by potential buyers. So why should they go through the trouble? The unsuspecting customers probably don't know better anyway. Pretty soon the cars will leave the lot and the long-term battery problems will be the customers' problems and not theirs. So who gives a hoot?

Even if Nissan cares, by having an extensive education program to the dealerships means that they'd be admitting to how high maintenance and complicated these batteries charging process is. If they make a big deal out of it, customers will get wind of it and customers will shy away because they wouldn't be willing to commit to such complicated charging processes.

So as far as Nissan is concerned, the more vague they can be, the simpler things can appear in terms of easy maintenance, the better the marketing of their LEAF it can be. They only have to put a wording or two inside the owner's manual, enough to cover their butt when the time comes to read it up after the fact. But any appearance of complication is to be avoided at all cost up front. For example, when I went to their car drive events, I never ever heard from Nissan about the 80% charging. All you hear is up to 100 miles depending on factors and conditions, but that's it.

Volusiano
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:41 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:18 pm

Herm wrote:A software revision that automatically discharges the battery down to 80% if the car has sat for 3 hours at 100%.
That's too complicated and can get Nissan into trouble if people can't get to where they need to be just because Nissan is trying to be too smart and second guess owners. Even if they provide an override button to not allow this to happen, people won't like the complication.

Remember that they're trying to play down the fact that you should be charging to 80% most of the time until after the car is sold, so that they can play up the fact that you can go up to 100 miles on a full charge and perfect conditions.

All they have to do is to provide the bare bone minimum information in the manual and let the owners fend for themselves. That's the Nissan style!

sethr
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Feb 2012
Leaf Number: 17458
Location: Fairfax, Virginia

Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:53 am

Not only did my dealership have my Leaf charged to 100% when I picked it up (happily, in February) but the salesperson plugged it in AGAIN to top it up even though it was fully charged. She just didn't know any better. Recently I was there to address a rattle. They didn't charge it, probably because there were 8 unsold Leafs there, blocking all the charging stations, but the person who drove it out when it was fixed couldn't figure out how to turn the car off, so he left it ON, READY TO DRIVE and UNLOCKED in the lot, taking the key fob to the service manager. At least he left it in park.... When I go there next time I will put a list of instructions on how to treat my Leaf, taped to the center of the steering wheel: No charging. Leave car off and locked. Drive only in Eco. (I worry some fool will put it in drive and end up in a wall, not realizing the acceleration the Leaf has.) Maybe we should all make up little signs....

adric22
Posts: 2488
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:40 pm
Delivery Date: 05 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 000768
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:59 am

Herm wrote:A software revision that automatically discharges the battery down to 80% if the car has sat for 3 hours at 100%.
There's a technical problem with that as well. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.. So that energy has to go somewhere. Where will it go?
2013 Blue Nissan Leaf SV
2012 Summit White Chevy Volt

eclecticflower
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:35 am
Delivery Date: 04 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 021559
Location: Kansas City, Missouri

Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:56 am

Back in June (2012), my LEAF Specialist was always SO proud that he had my car "ready to go and charged to 100%" even after I'd asked him on one occasion to just charge to 80%. That time he corrected himself - "oh, yeah, 80%!" :oops: Of course, I got in and it was fully charged. LEAF Specialist?? I hope he's learned some charging strategies by now - makes me wonder if he knew how to charge to 80% or even thought twice about doing that (he doesn't have many LEAF customers). At the time, I hadn't gotten around to setting timers (I just plugged in after arriving home - no TOU rates). Since he'd promised me an 80% charge, I thought he'd have known how to do that... :roll:
2012 Cayenne Red LEAF SL: Vanity Plate - G'BYGAS
Reserved 08/10, Ordered 3/12/2012, $99 Refunded 5/16/12, Delivered 6/4/12.

jcobb
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 11:55 am
Delivery Date: 0- 0-2011

Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:28 am

If a dealer is overriding your timer setting (like the op) that is an issue but if they are just plugging in your car as part of their service procedure there is nothing wrong with that. You should take the 30 seconds to set the timer to 80% and be done with it. The occasional charge to 100% will not adversely effect your battery. If you are taking your car in for service every other day of the week and they are charging to 100% then you have more important problems than what your battery will look like in 10 years.

Yes dealers should be educated on the Leaf and should understand the issues with charging. The more crucial issue is what effect 100% charge will have on those cars now on the dealer lots waiting for purchase. Personally I know my dealer leaves the cars at 50% charge while sitting and will only fully charge the car when deliver is being made but again that is a dealer education issue.

Herm
Posts: 3765
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 3:08 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Aug 2012
Location: Timbuktu, Mali

Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:37 am

adric22 wrote: There's a technical problem with that as well. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.. So that energy has to go somewhere. Where will it go?
Run the AC and the heater at the same time until the battery comes down to 80%.

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