smkettner
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Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:33 pm

LEAFer wrote:The timer-override button should over-ride just THAT ... the timer, *NOT* the charge level.
I like the timer programming to be able to designate the charge level.

I agree default should be 80% in all cases unless otherwise selected.
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camasleaf
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Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:11 pm

sethr wrote:Not only did my dealership have my Leaf charged to 100% when I picked it up (happily, in February) but the salesperson plugged it in AGAIN to top it up even though it was fully charged.
I heard the dealer saying that he did not see more then 128 miles on the GOM regardless of how many time it was topped off :roll: . Maybe a new customer should request a battery report when buying the car. If it was topped off and stayed at high charge the report might show it. But, probably the dealer know how to reset those numbers.
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dhanson865
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Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:27 pm

Valdemar wrote:
adric22 wrote:
Herm wrote:A software revision that automatically discharges the battery down to 80% if the car has sat for 3 hours at 100%.
There's a technical problem with that as well. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.. So that energy has to go somewhere. Where will it go?
AC/Heater/Hi-beams?
Hi beam headlights solves the problem two ways, it drains the battery pack and it's noticable from a distance and thus can be a reminder/educational prompt.

"Why do my head lights keep coming on when I leave my car parked at 100% charge?" Open manual and read a block that says "Don't leave your car parked at 100% charge for extended periods, if you do the system will turn the headlights on until charge is lowered to safe level".

Make the change in software and manual and you train the user and protect them at the same time.
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keydiver
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Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:45 pm

LEAFer wrote:The whole "philosophy" needs to be changed -- by Nissan Engineering in firmware.

The "Standard" (or "dummy") default should ALWAYS be 80%.

The timer-override button should over-ride just THAT ... the timer, *NOT* the charge level.
I often thought about how simple a thing it would have been for Nissan to program the Timer Override button for both 80% and 100% operation. One push=80%, 2 pushes=100%, with a slightly different dash display to confirm your selection. This isn't rocket science. There have been several days when I arrive back home later on a day that I only have a 100% End Timer set, and I'd just like a light charge, but there's no easy way to do it.
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dusty2050
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Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:43 pm

Volusiano wrote:In my opinion, first of all, Nissan doesn't care, and the dealerships don't care, because these bad charging practices only have long-term effects on the batteries, which is not immediately recognizable by potential buyers. So why should they go through the trouble? The unsuspecting customers probably don't know better anyway. Pretty soon the cars will leave the lot and the long-term battery problems will be the customers' problems and not theirs. So who gives a hoot?

Even if Nissan cares, by having an extensive education program to the dealerships means that they'd be admitting to how high maintenance and complicated these batteries charging process is. If they make a big deal out of it, customers will get wind of it and customers will shy away because they wouldn't be willing to commit to such complicated charging processes.

So as far as Nissan is concerned, the more vague they can be, the simpler things can appear in terms of easy maintenance, the better the marketing of their LEAF it can be. They only have to put a wording or two inside the owner's manual, enough to cover their butt when the time comes to read it up after the fact. But any appearance of complication is to be avoided at all cost up front. For example, when I went to their car drive events, I never ever heard from Nissan about the 80% charging. All you hear is up to 100 miles depending on factors and conditions, but that's it.
Yep my dealer has got their shipment in of 6 new leafs and they are sitting baking the 110 degree here in Oklahoma... As you said its long term so the poor buyer (if there are anymore) will get a car where the battery is starting to fry and the ediot lights will show all is well. Buy hey the dealer sold another car right?

dusty2050
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Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:46 pm

smkettner wrote:
davewill wrote:For a normal service visit, there's no point to these worries that I can see. Battery degradation is a cumulative effect. One, or even a dozen instances for being charged to 100% just isn't a real concern. Of more interest in the long-term storage of LEAFs, especially in hot climates.
+1, I would worry more about sitting 100% charged for 6+ weeks before the car is initially sold. Especially in over 85F temperatures.

Well in Oklahoma how about them sitting for 6+ weeks at 110 degrees!!!!

smkettner
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Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:13 pm

Makes you want to go back to the ordering system to get a fresh vehicle delivered during winter.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

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planet4ever
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Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:07 am

keydiver wrote:
LEAFer wrote:The "Standard" (or "dummy") default should ALWAYS be 80%. The timer-override button should over-ride just THAT ... the timer, *NOT* the charge level.
I often thought about how simple a thing it would have been for Nissan to program the Timer Override button for both 80% and 100% operation. One push=80%, 2 pushes=100%, with a slightly different dash display to confirm your selection.
I think you are both onto something here, but keydiver's solution wouldn't meet my requirements. I normally run an end-only timer that says 80%. Once every few months I want to override the timer to add some juice away from home, but most of the time when I hit the override it is because I expect to need 100% the next day. You see what's coming, of course. That means I start charging in the evening, and probably hit 100% around midnight. Not good. My rationalization has been that I am leaving plenty of time for cell balancing, but I am seriously rethinking that now.
LEAFer wrote:The "Extended Range" or "Full Charge" option should be available on the console as a temporary over-ride feature
Yes, that's what I need. One button to override time; a separate one to override charge level. Now, I wouldn't go as far as LEAFer, who says that the default for everybody all the time should be 80%, and you can't even get 100% without a two-step override. Some people need 100% for their daily commute, and they should be able to set that as a default. For them, the charge level override could be to limit the charge that night to 80%. Why not?

But the key point I believe LEAFer is making is true: Level of charge has nothing to do with time of charge. The two functions should be totally separate. Having to set a "timer" for charging any-time-of-the-day just to get an 80% charge level is utter nonsense.

While you're at it, Nissan, don't forget the number of owners pleading for values other than 80% and 100%, especially people living in the mountains with unique regen situations leaving home.

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

Herm
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Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:39 am

The BMS could also adjust the time it allows the car to sit at 100% depending on the temperature.. if its below 70 F then it would allow longer full charges. Another training tool Nissan could use would be an estimated battery life screen.. it would display a date and miles at which the battery would reach the 70% end of life state.. plus some text to drill down into the numbers. Good tool for those buying a used Leaf.

A reminder of another factor that determines battery life.. note its a different chemistry:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/08 ... 20808.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"10-year reliable calendar life: 1000+ cycles at 100% DOD; 2000+ cycles at 90% DOD; 3500+ cycles at 75% DOD"

dusty2050
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Re: Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:51 pm

RegGuheert wrote:I think it is fully engrained in the minds of dealership employees to "fill up" vehicles whenever they come on the lot, both when they are new and when they come in for service. I don't think this was a big issue last year when nearly every LEAF manufactured was quickly received by a customer who had been awaiting its arrival for months.

But now sales are slow and LEAFs are starting to accumulate on dealer lots in the middle of a hot summer. And I expect that practically every one of them is sitting on dealer lots at full charge.

Today, I took our LEAF in for service tomorrow. I thought they would probably charge it up tomorrow during service in the 95F heat, but I figured I would pick it up quickly to reduce the SOC. But I decided to check the car this evening and they have already fully charged it. I thought about dissipating some of the charge with the climate control, but it is connected to the EVSE, so that won't work. If they had simply hooked it up and not pressed the button, it would charge to 80% in the early morning. Or, better yet, they could simply not charge it at all.

Anyway, it seems that in light of the fact that these cars already have a pretty limited battery capacity and in hot climates some LEAFs are losing capacity at an alarming rate, dealerships need to take better care of the batteries of LEAFs in their care. Unfortunately, they do not know any better. In fact, I'm convinced they think this is the best practice and see it as a service to their customers.

So how does this get changed? IMO, Nissan should have an extensive education program for their dealership employees to convince them to change their behavior in regards to EV charging. As it is today, Nissan doesn't make it easy for them to take proper care of the cars. If a dealership wants to charge a LEAF, the button is their only convenient option, so it is a little hard to imagine them doing anything different than what they do today. Perhaps the real solution is to add a new "storage" charging mode to their EVs in the future and have it be the default for new cars. This mode could override the button so that it charges to 60% SOC or even something a little lower.

So what do you think is needed to put a halt to the needless LEAF-torture?
Here is a perfect example... A local dealership has 6 brand new leafs on the lot baking in the 100 plus degree weather in Oklahoma and at almost a full charge!!!!


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