Clunk / bang when reversing in AM (gen 1)

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I was able to replicate the problem with the car on stands today while I was doing scheduled maintenance. I put a floor jack under the control arm and turned the steering wheel lock to lock. I studied the original video (higher res than below) at 1/4-speed and couldn't see anything moving/vibrating as the two sounds happened a few seconds apart. I left in a lock-lock sequence afterward so you can see that it's silent.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xV3jMGgfkp2MynU2A

Got another twofer of clunks/pops when backing out of the driveway:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/w3XxsDpknFqMB3s86

It amazes me that the dealer hasn't been able to fix this, but I think I need to get over it. Looking for help with two things:
  1. Competent dealers in the Metro D.C. area
  2. Input from those who have successfully escalated a difficult issue through Nissan USA

Thanks!
 
Goodbar said:
I was able to replicate the problem with the car on stands today while I was doing scheduled maintenance. I put a floor jack under the control arm and turned the steering wheel lock to lock. I studied the original video (higher res than below) at 1/4-speed and couldn't see anything moving/vibrating as the two sounds happened a few seconds apart. I left in a lock-lock sequence afterward so you can see that it's silent.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xV3jMGgfkp2MynU2A

Got another twofer of clunks/pops when backing out of the driveway:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/w3XxsDpknFqMB3s86

It amazes me that the dealer hasn't been able to fix this, but I think I need to get over it. Looking for help with two things:
  1. Competent dealers in the Metro D.C. area
  2. Input from those who have successfully escalated a difficult issue through Nissan USA

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm mistaken but the top of the strut seems to have a lot of play.
 
While I can't help you with the DC dealer or Nissan escalation (in fact, I've had an unsuccessful escalation with them), I will say, in the event that any dealer tries to tell you otherwise, that this behavior is not normal. I have a 2011 and my car has never done this--bang or twang sound.

Good luck :)
 
Lothsahn said:
While I can't help you with the DC dealer or Nissan escalation (in fact, I've had an unsuccessful escalation with them), I will say, in the event that any dealer tries to tell you otherwise, that this behavior is not normal. I have a 2011 and my car has never done this--bang or twang sound.

Good luck :)
Click to expand...

Thanks. I find it insulting — and lazy — that they've suggested that it's normal. I've owned tired old cars that didn't make any noises that after their suspensions were refreshed. So it seems unreasonable that a car I bought new couldn't be fixed. Especially after five visits.
 
Goodbar said:
Lothsahn said:
While I can't help you with the DC dealer or Nissan escalation (in fact, I've had an unsuccessful escalation with them), I will say, in the event that any dealer tries to tell you otherwise, that this behavior is not normal. I have a 2011 and my car has never done this--bang or twang sound.

Good luck :)
Click to expand...

Thanks. I find it insulting — and lazy — that they've suggested that it's normal. I've owned tired old cars that didn't make any noises that after their suspensions were refreshed. So it seems unreasonable that a car I bought new couldn't be fixed. Especially after five visits.
Click to expand...

Have you consulted lemon laws in your area? I know in some areas they can be quite generous--If not fixed in X number of times, return car for original purchase price, etc.

Even if you don't want to invoke that, it's often a good way to get the company to wake up and fix the problem. A threat that they have to buy back a 3 year old car at sticker can get the teflon service manager to change his tune quickly (and most of the suspension components on your car).

Alternatively, take it to a competent independent mechanic and they'll probably have it sorted in a few days. At some point, your time and frustration becomes not worth it.
 
Lothsahn said:
Have you consulted lemon laws in your area? I know in some areas they can be quite generous--If not fixed in X number of times, return car for original purchase price, etc.

Even if you don't want to invoke that, it's often a good way to get the company to wake up and fix the problem. A threat that they have to buy back a 3 year old car at sticker can get the teflon service manager to change his tune quickly (and most of the suspension components on your car).

Alternatively, take it to a competent independent mechanic and they'll probably have it sorted in a few days. At some point, your time and frustration becomes not worth it.
Click to expand...

I"m not aware of any region where Lemon Law is applicable to such an old car (3 years, 22k miles) DC Lemon Law has a 2 year, 18k miles limit.
 
Lothsahn said:
Goodbar said:
Lothsahn said:
While I can't help you with the DC dealer or Nissan escalation (in fact, I've had an unsuccessful escalation with them), I will say, in the event that any dealer tries to tell you otherwise, that this behavior is not normal. I have a 2011 and my car has never done this--bang or twang sound.

Good luck :)
Click to expand...

Thanks. I find it insulting — and lazy — that they've suggested that it's normal. I've owned tired old cars that didn't make any noises that after their suspensions were refreshed. So it seems unreasonable that a car I bought new couldn't be fixed. Especially after five visits.
Click to expand...

Have you consulted lemon laws in your area? I know in some areas they can be quite generous--If not fixed in X number of times, return car for original purchase price, etc.

Even if you don't want to invoke that, it's often a good way to get the company to wake up and fix the problem. A threat that they have to buy back a 3 year old car at sticker can get the teflon service manager to change his tune quickly (and most of the suspension components on your car).

Alternatively, take it to a competent independent mechanic and they'll probably have it sorted in a few days. At some point, your time and frustration becomes not worth it.
Click to expand...

I should have consulted MD's lemon law earlier :(
https://www.peoples-law.org/marylands-lemon-law

.. because I probably would have qualified. I'm over the mileage and age limits, but might still discuss with an attorney. Thanks for the idea.
 
Goodbar said:
Lothsahn said:
Goodbar said:
Thanks. I find it insulting — and lazy — that they've suggested that it's normal. I've owned tired old cars that didn't make any noises that after their suspensions were refreshed. So it seems unreasonable that a car I bought new couldn't be fixed. Especially after five visits.
Click to expand...

Have you consulted lemon laws in your area? I know in some areas they can be quite generous--If not fixed in X number of times, return car for original purchase price, etc.

Even if you don't want to invoke that, it's often a good way to get the company to wake up and fix the problem. A threat that they have to buy back a 3 year old car at sticker can get the teflon service manager to change his tune quickly (and most of the suspension components on your car).

Alternatively, take it to a competent independent mechanic and they'll probably have it sorted in a few days. At some point, your time and frustration becomes not worth it.
Click to expand...

I should have consulted MD's lemon law earlier :(
https://www.peoples-law.org/marylands-lemon-law

.. because I probably would have qualified. I'm over the mileage and age limits, but might still discuss with an attorney. Thanks for the idea.
Click to expand...

I am not a lawyer, but if you first contacted them within this period, you may qualify. Again, I'm hoping you don't have to go that route, but just voicing you have that stick available can really get teflon people moving.
 
The problem appears to be solved after taking the car back to Herb Gordon Nissan, where we bought the car, on the penultimate day of our warranty in July. They replaced the right front strut mount. (Which I had suggested was the problem the previous time I took it in!)

So, while I'm glad this is (apparently) fixed, this experience leaves me exasperated with Herb Gordon and Nissan. I know reliability and build quality is somewhat a matter of luck, but this car does not seem to be up to the same quality standards (materials and manufacturing) as previous Hondas, a Toyota and VWs (though VWs get an asterisk for reliability).

This problem required six trips to the dealer to be corrected, out of a total of 11 warranty trips in 34 months. The first trip was in the second month of ownership. Some of those trips could have been easily eliminated by greater competence or giving a hoot about the customer. That's one of my biggest disappointments: The staff at Herb Gordon was cordial, but they just couldn't seem to be bothered to make things right without my repeated attempts. They did provide loaner cars, but between the round-trip drives, swapping car seats to the loaner, and then the reverse, this was a huge waste of time. (The Leaf is our only car, making some logistics trickier.) And while I did get a follow-up a couple days after getting the car back, no one ever said anything along the lines of "Sorry you've had so much trouble with your car. This is really out of the ordinary and we're trying our best to make it right."

Maybe business is so good that they don't need repeat customers?!
 
My 1986 Civic Si, bought new, developed a rainwater leak under the windshield after a few years - maybe while still under warranty. I have no idea how many attempts were made, but the leak was never fixed. The sub-frame (yes, I know it's unibody) member and floor under the driver's left foot rotted out. The '95 Civic EX I bought about 10 years ago and drove for a few years also developed a rainwater leak under the windshield. I bought my then-GF a Scion XB, and the rear hatch handles on those are solid plastic, and break often. The engines frequently use oil, sometimes LOTS of oil. I think you get the idea...
 
Some updates: The noise returned a couple months after the final warranty trip in July 2020. It has steadily gotten worse over time and now we hear it occasionally when driving, not just when leaving the driveway.

The car is due for an alignment anyway, so I decided to replace the strut mounts and bearings this week. No change! And no obvious fault with either strut bearing. The original one on the left felt about the same as the right one that was replaced last year.

I found some other threads that describe similar noises, including a reference to a TSB for '13-15 Leafs (and models with similar suspension components):

https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23370

TSB https://www.tsbsearch.com/Nissan/NTB14-088

It involves adding a spacer between the strut bearing and spring. Oddly, when I look up the PN, it only applies to the 2018-19 Leaf:

https://www.nissanpartsdeal.com/parts/nissan-seat-front-spri~54034-4ma0a.html

And the drawing shows an upside-down spring seat like the one that sits on the strut. Searching for the PN results in images that match the TSB, though.
wI07cKh.jpg


Wish I'd seen this before I swapped mounts! :x

Anyone have experience with those spacers? Or know how they are solving the problem?
 
The spacer goes between the top of the spring and the bearing holder to reduce or eliminate any free space or gap. It may be used as a sacrificial piece to allow sliding of the coil end with respect to the bearing holder.

[edit] Actually if your bearing is binding (damaged) then the holder will be resisting against turning and cause the spring to dig in to the holder. Then you are trying to rotate the spring while you turn, which it is not supposed to do. The strut is designed for the spring to be stationary--there should be no relative motion between the top of the spring and the bottom of the bearing holder. All rotation is thru the bearing.


Take a flashlight and look up high in the wheel well to see this mess, and look to see if your flat bearing holder surface is all scratched up and gouged with dig marks from the spring?
 
nlspace said:
The spacer goes between the top of the spring and the bearing holder to reduce or eliminate any freespace or gap.

The problem is that these are 3rd world design springs used in the laef.

The ends of the spring are just open-end coils and it looks like they just used a crude shear to trim the end after the coil was bent--there may even be a burr on the end. A good quality spring would have the ends turned in and ground flat, to provide a large smooth face and surface area to carry the load and to ride flat against the bearing holder, and to adjust the free spring length to a known spec.

As a result of the open coil design there is a concentrated point load at the spring end against the bearing holder that can dig in (if burred) and bind during turning. The amount of contact between the spring coil end and the holder varies depending upon the road loading too.

When the turning load force exceeds the burr holding force, the spring pops back up against the holder and makes a noise. The top end of the strut is floating in the bearing holder so there is plenty of compliance to allow turning, side loads and bumps.

A proper ground spring end would have cost slightly more to produce, as would removing the burr from a sheared part. But if nothing else they could have used a spring perch at the top to fit and contain the end coil just as was used at the lower end of the spring.

Take a flashlight and look up high in the wheel well to see this mess, and look to see if your flat bearing holder surface is all scratched up and gouged with dig marks from the spring?
Click to expand...
Thanks, that confirms my suspicion. The bearings (one orig, the other is 1 year old) that came out of the car are not gouged, but they are slightly distorted (i.e., don't sit flat). They also bind in a couple spots, though I realize that they don't go through a full rotation when installed.

I didn't notice burrs when I replaced the mounts and bearings, but did wonder about the pressure being applied at the end of the spring. And that the bearings don't seem robust. I'll take a closer look when I repeat this job and put in the spacers I just ordered. Grrr.
 
compare the direction of the coil winding and whether the bearing holder is sliding away from or being driven in toward the coil end when turning the steering wheel in the direction that caused the clunk.

When the car is jacked up it unloads the spring and may not create the clunking conditions, but you could shake the spring to see if there is any gap at the top. i wouldn't expect any, but ya never know...
 
nlspace said:
compare the direction of the coil winding and whether the bearing holder is sliding away from or being driven in toward the coil end when turning the steering wheel in the direction that caused the clunk.

When the car is jacked up it unloads the spring and may not create the clunking conditions, but you could shake the spring to see if there is any gap at the top. i wouldn't expect any, but ya never know...
Click to expand...

It happens in both directions, but more frequently — if memory serves — with clockwise steering input. Last year I was able to replicate the sound with the car on stands and a floor jack under the control arm to load the spring. (Sounds heard in the first few sec of first clip.) Unfortunately it's not consistent, so I only had one set of noises that session.

https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=31105&start=20#p584381

I'll take a closer look, as well as more detailed photos, when I dive in for the next round of fun.

The newer strut bearing, replaced under warranty, does feel smoother when I apply some pressure. I plan to pop the bearings apart to see what they look like once I'm confident I have a fix.
 
Goodbar said:
...
the car are not gouged, but they are slightly distorted (i.e., don't sit flat). They also bind in a couple spots,
Click to expand...

i overlooked this previously, but the bearing is damaged and would cause this to occur.
 
UPDATE: I'm declaring victory.

— Original Post —

The noises were worse than ever in the three weeks since I installed new KYB strut mounts and bearings. So I took the struts out again today and put in the spacers that are part of TSB https://www.tsbsearch.com/Nissan/NTB14-088 I decided to reuse the old bearings, but keep the new KYB mounts because they seemed to improve ride quality a bit.

I also filed the ends of the springs slightly (and painted) to lessen the chance of a "hot spot" on the bearing, which is what it appears the spacers are designed to do. The bearings no longer look distorted — relative to the mount — with the spacer installed. The right side looked more pronounced than the left, and it sounded like most of the clunks were coming from the right.

No noises on my test drive, though I'm not declaring victory quite yet. I'll report back in a couple weeks.

The parts cost about $45 with shipping from Nissan Parts Plus:
54034-4MA0A Spacer (Qty 2)
54588-JA060 Strut Nut (Qty 4)
54588-JA005 Top Nut (Qty 2)
01225-N2011 Suspension Stabilizer Bar Link Nut (Qty 2)

Here are some photos:
NHsFNSp.jpg


bikgONu.jpg


sDUC3Zx.jpg


LbZ6xp2.jpg


sl64BWW.jpg
 
What was the condition of the old bearing and mount?
Was there roughness and binding when rotating the bearing?
What was the gap on the old bearing?
Was the rubberized portions of the strut mount damaged, broken or loose?

Did you lubricate the new bearing or any sliding surfaces?

Why KYB and not the OEM parts?

It seems to happen while turning the wheels to the left when backing out of your driveway--is there a step or crack in the driveway?

My 2012 has over a 1mm gap all around the bearing with no distortion at the spring end. And no retro spacer ring.

That KYB bearing seems not up to spec.
 
nlspace said:
What was the condition of the old bearing and mount?
Was there roughness and binding when rotating the bearing?
Click to expand...
Old bearing right side: This is was replaced under warranty Aug 2020. The plastic housing had slight distortion, but the bearing runs smoothly when installed with the spacer. I took it through a full revolution.

Old bearing left side: Same deal, but this one is original to the car.

What was the gap on the old bearing?
Click to expand...
Didn't take good photos when I removed the Nissan bearings about three weeks ago.

Was the rubberized portions of the strut mount damaged, broken or loose?
Click to expand...
The factory mounts look fine. I didn't want to take it apart only to find they were in need of replacement, so I just bought replacement KYBs.

Did you lubricate the new bearing or any sliding surfaces?
Click to expand...
No.

Why KYB and not the OEM parts?
Click to expand...
Cheaper, and AFAIK, they are the OEM. The bearings look identical, though made more noise than the factory parts ever did... so maybe looks are deceiving. The strut mounts differ slightly from the factory parts. I thought the car rode a little better with the KYBs (maybe simply due to the rubber being newer and more supple), so I retained them.

It seems to happen while turning the wheels to the left when backing out of your driveway--is there a step or crack in the driveway?
Click to expand...
There is a slight rise from the street to the driveway, but the sound happened when cutting the steering wheel and before the front wheels go over that transition.

My 2012 has over a 1mm gap all around the bearing with no distortion at the spring end. And no retro spacer ring.

That KYB bearing seems not up to spec.
Click to expand...
Agreed. It's been a learning process. And frankly a ridiculous amount of effort to correct a fault that the car shipped with. It dims my view of Nissan's engineering and build quality. Hoping it's finally fixed.
 

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