IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

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ELROY

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
293
Location
Camarillo, CA
Just got my new 2012 Leaf SL last weekend.

Still kind of shocked by some of my observations, but not sure it is because of a defect or normal.

Range:

When I first purchased the car, I went up the freeway 2.5 mile (6%) grade at 60mph, the range dropped around 25 miles!
( I have since learned that highway speeds and grades kill the range on the leaf). My biggest surprise was coming back down that 2.5 mile (6%) grade, I figured I would recapture much of the energy. My range only went up 2 miles!

But besides that episode here are some of my range experiences:

BARS Start..BARS End..GOM Range Elapsed.......Actual Mileage
7..................5.............18 Miles ....................12.6 Actual .....Mostly city driving Some AC, Driver Only
6..................2.............44 Mi........................27.9 Actual .....Mostly city driving Some AC Driver Only
10................8.............29 Miles.....................8.9 Actual......Mostly city driving Some AC Driver Only

Today I just did the following trip specifically to check the range capability on the car. Drove from Camarillo to Ojai and back (Ojai is about +600ft elevation). Temps 80F. AC not used except for perhaps 3 minutes total. . Cruise control about 90% of the time. Drove to Ojai (which is 32 miles from Camarillo) in "D", and on the way back in ECO Mode. After arriving back in Camarillo, I just drove around town in the open farm roads around 40-50mph till battery bars were depleted. This trip included my wife and two kids. About 275 lbs additional over just myself.

Bars Start.....Bars End...........GOM Elapsed Range....Actual Mileage ..Comments.
12 Bars.........0 Bars...............88 Miles..................80.7 Miles ......60mph (36mi), 50mph (16mi), 40mph (mi)

So this was my most reassuring test so far. At least for the first time, the actual range was close to the predicted GOM range. My main purpose was to see how far I could go on a full 100% charge anyways.
It now says it will take 22hrs to charge.....I hate the slow charging!

Charging Questions:
I have been reading many threads on the charging options, and here are my questions I couldn’t find answers to:

a) Is it true the Level 2 chargers are more efficient than the trickle charger? 85% vs 75% or so? If so, what technically makes them more efficient?

b) When your battery deteriorates over time, how does the affect efficiency? ie, if your battery loses 20% of its capacity, does it actually take 20% less power to charge it also? Or is it wasted energy that is not recovered?

Heating Inop?:

I have read about several members with inop interior heaters on their 2012 LEAFs.
I was beginning to think the LEAF was designed with the heated seats and steering wheel since it didn't have a heater!

I have head some people say their dealership though it was a bad heater motor, some had bad control units, and others have had their poor new cars thoroughly disassembled as the techs are tryiing to figure this thing out. I would rather wait till they know for sure what is going on with this issue. Anything concrete yet on these failures?

Level 2 charging:
This is my last, and probably most important question:

I called the SCE rep and asked them about my electrical billing specifics. I am currently on what they call a "Domestic Rate Plan" It can go anywhere from .12 cents per kw/hr on tier 1 to .32 cents per kw/hr on tier 5.
With my regular home electrical needs, I am already at tier 5. So almost .50 cents an hr (1.5kw/hr charger) for 22hrs to charge this battery on the trickle charger. That’s almost $11 dollars to go 80 mlles at best. Not impressive at all considering my 2011 335d which can get (45mpg on the highway) can do the same thing on $11 with much more comfort, speed (300hp/500lbs/tq with a JBD), A/C, etc.

So it looks like I need to get the SCE TOULEV1 (Separate Meter) Plan ASAP!
It will then be .12 cent kw/hr off peak winter, and .13 cents kw/hr off peak summer. I figure this would then lower my effective price of charging the battery to $4.29. Does that sound right? But man, throw in the $2000 price of a level 2 charger set up, and with my driving (8000mi/yr), it will take a long time to recoup the costs.

I hear there were special offers by BLINK, but the rep told me there is no program in my area (93010). I’m so bummed out. I have a few questions?

a) What is the most cost effective way of getting this Level 2 charging set up at my house?
b) I have a 240V dryer outlet in the garage...but it is not on a separate meter. Wonder if they can rewire it at the box to go through a separate meter?). This would save a bunch of rewiring labor I would think.
c). I have seen ads for reworking my trickle charger for auto detect 240V input. Have people been using this method reliably and does it still have comparable efficiency ratings? I have seen the mod for as low as $250 or so.
d). Does anyone know what a plug in Blink or Aeroinvironment Level 2 charger runs? Typical Electrician charges? Where do I find someone experienced with these things, and yet reasonable in labor costs?
e) Isn't there some kind of a 30% federal rebate on the charger installations?

Sorry for all the questions...I know this is my first newbie post, but I have been reading countless posts on this forum, but still have questions.

Also, why do some people talk about the $7500 government tax rebate as something you get at the end of the year, when my dealership took it right off the purchase price of the car. Does the charger install rebates work the same way, the contractors/charger supplier discount the price you pay up front? Or do you have to file it on your tax return or something?
 
ELROY said:
When I first purchased the car, I went up the freeway 2.5 mile (6%) grade at 60mph, the range dropped around 25 miles!
( I have since learned that highway speeds and grades kill the range on the leaf). My biggest surprise was coming back down that 2.5 mile (6%) grade, I figured I would recapture much of the energy. My range only went up 2 miles!
The sooner you stop paying attention to the numbers on the GOM, the better. It does nothing to help you predict your actual range. If anything, it induces range anxiety.

ELROY said:
But besides that episode here are some of my range experiences:

BARS Start..BARS End..GOM Range Elapsed.......Actual Mileage
7..................5.............18 Miles ....................12.6 Actual .....Mostly city driving Some AC, Driver Only
6..................2.............44 Mi........................27.9 Actual .....Mostly city driving Some AC Driver Only
10................8.............29 Miles.....................8.9 Actual......Mostly city driving Some AC Driver Only

About 6 to 7 miles per bar, which sounds plausible. Keep in mind that bars are not very granular, and they can come and go. I used to get pretty upset when I would lose a bar when turning the car on and off. It doesn't mean anything, and there is substantial reserve once all bars have disappeared.

ELROY said:
Today I just did the following trip specifically to check the range capability on the car. After arriving back in Camarillo, I just drove around town in the open farm roads around 40-50mph till battery bars were depleted.

Bars Start.....Bars End...........GOM Elapsed Range....Actual Mileage ..Comments.
12 Bars.........0 Bars...............88 Miles..................80.7 Miles ......60mph (36mi), 50mph (16mi), 40mph (mi)
There you go 80 miles, well done! Did you get the low battery warning? There is still about 15% of total usable energy left in the pack at that point.

ELROY said:
At least for the first time, the actual range was close to the predicted GOM range.
The GOM lies, plain as that.

ELROY said:
My main purpose was to see how far I could go on a full 100% charge anyways.
Well done, but I believe that you were still far from hitting turtle mode.

ELROY said:
It now says it will take 22hrs to charge.....I hate the slow charging!
The charging display lies too. It takes about 21 hours to recharge from turtle to full, and about 17 hours to recharge from the low battery warning. About 1 kWh usable energy per hour of 120V charging.

ELROY said:
a) Is it true the Level 2 chargers are more efficient than the trickle charger? 85% vs 75% or so? If so, what technically makes them more efficient?
Yes. It's due to fixed overhead, likely due to a cooling pump.

ELROY said:
b) When your battery deteriorates over time, how does the affect efficiency? ie, if your battery loses 20% of its capacity, does it actually take 20% less power to charge it also? Or is it wasted energy that is not recovered?
No, the battery will simply hold less energy. Everything else stays the same. It's likely that energy economy will decline at some point due to higher internal resistance of the battery. More waste heat will be generated during charging and discharging.

ELROY said:
e) Isn't there some kind of a 30% federal rebate on the charger installations?
This tax break was not renewed in 2011.

ELROY said:
Sorry for all the questions...I know this is my first newbie post, but I have been reading countless posts on this forum, but still have questions.
Welcome, thanks for being part of this community, and most importantly, have fun with your Leaf!
1
 
You said you purchased. If your dealer allowed you a $7,500 credit, then you either leased or he gave you a heck of a deal on a purchase. If you purchased, then you should still get the tax credit, providing you have that much tax liability.
 
ebill3 said:
You said you purchased. If your dealer allowed you a $7,500 credit, then you either leased or he gave you a heck of a deal on a purchase. If you purchased, then you should still get the tax credit, providing you have that much tax liability.

My mistake. It is a 39mos lease. So I guess that means I already received the full benefit at lease inception. (over the life of the lease at least).

I'm still wondering how people get 100 miles on trips...(with some reportedly doing 55-60mph freeway speeds). I'm wondering if the dealership might have the tires underinflated. Do most people follow the tire pressure recommendation from Nissan, or do they run the highest pressure possible? (What PSI?)
 
ELROY said:
My mistake. It is a 39mos lease. So I guess that means I already received the full benefit at lease inception. (over the life of the lease at least).
Be sure to apply for CVRP, since you are in California. And please update the location information in your profile if possible.

ELROY said:
I'm still wondering how people get 100 miles on trips...(with some reportedly doing 55-60mph freeway speeds). I'm wondering if the dealership might have the tires underinflated.
Simple, by learning new skills and by going slow on the freeway. You can read the gory details in the 100-mile club thread. Google search is your friend. Read the Wiki if you can, it's the best thing we have in absence of an FAQ.
 
ELROY said:
...I'm still wondering how people get 100 miles on trips...(with some reportedly doing 55-60mph freeway speeds). I'm wondering if the dealership might have the tires underinflated. Do most people follow the tire pressure recommendation from Nissan, or do they run the highest pressure possible? (What PSI?)
It is possible to do 100 miles with some 60 mph, I've done it. But 100 miles all at 60 mph is unlikely except perhaps in very warm humid temperatures (lower air density = lower drag). Most 100+ mile trips on a single charge involve at least some lower speeds. Don't get hung up on it, the LEAF really doesn't have a 100 mile range under ordinary driving conditions for most people. The EPA range of 73 miles should be easy to do while the battery is new except in very cold temperatures or poor weather conditions (rain, snow, wind).

If you haven't already done so, please take a look at Tony's range chart.


Yes, air pressure in the tires makes a difference in mileage. The pressure suggested by Nissan is 36 PSI*. Many people here run them higher than that, up to the limit marked on the tires of 44 PSI. I usually run mine at 40 PSI and no lower than 38, but I also have to deal with large elevation changes, unlike most LEAF owners). I find that my curvy mountain road handling is pretty good at 40 PSI.

There are a number of reports here that suggest that the stock tires will wear more evenly at higher pressures. FWIW.

By the way, if you turn the car on while you are filling the tires it will flash the running lights when you hit the fill limit. It seemed to flash at about 38 PSI the last time I tried it, but I suppose it depends on the accuracy of the gauge and the tire pressure sensors. Useful to know if doing a tire repair out on the road somewhere, given the lack of a spare (I carry a plug kit since the Nissan supplied goop has been reported to damage the expensive tire pressure sensor).


*Some Nissan dealers don't realize that the heavy LEAF takes higher tire pressure than other car models, so be sure to check it after picking a LEAF up from a dealer after service.
 
ELROY said:
...a) What is the most cost effective way of getting this Level 2 charging set up at my house?
b) I have a 240V dryer outlet in the garage...but it is not on a separate meter. Wonder if they can rewire it at the box to go through a separate meter?). This would save a bunch of rewiring labor I would think.
c). I have seen ads for reworking my trickle charger for auto detect 240V input. Have people been using this method reliably and does it still have comparable efficiency ratings? I have seen the mod for as low as $250 or so...
Since you have a 240V dryer outlet that you can use, the most cost-effective 240 Volt charging is evseupgrade.com along with a 14-30 to L6-20 plug adapter. I highly recommend that you read the evseupgrade.com home page because it has a lot of answers to FAQs.

For a separate meter, I'm not clear on whether you need it for billing with SCE or for your own use. If you just want one to track your electrical usage you can install a refurbished utility meter. I installed a refurb utility meter like the one DaveinOlyWA describes here:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/blog.php?u=291&b=92" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Inexpensive and fairly easy as a DIY project if one is comfortable in working with electric lines, or an electrician could handle it easily. My version:
l620outletandmeter0286s.jpg

evseoutletandmeter0288s.jpg


One more thing I'll mention, since I seem to be the only one who does it, you can string your charge cable from the ceiling of your garage to keep it off the floor and out of the way. I just use some bicycle hooks on the ceiling to hold it.
 
As for the second meter for the EV TOU plan: I am not in Southern California so I may be wrong, but I would expect SCE to require the second meter be directly hard-wired to the EVSE to prevent (or at least make it harder) to run other things like your dryer on the cheap electricity.

If, by chance, they will let you connect the second meter to an outlet, the cheapest option is http://www.evseupgrade.com. Many people on MNL, including me, have gotten the upgrade and are very happy with the result.
 
dgpcolorado said:
ELROY said:
...a) What is the most cost effective way of getting this Level 2 charging set up at my house?
b) I have a 240V dryer outlet in the garage...but it is not on a separate meter. Wonder if they can rewire it at the box to go through a separate meter?). This would save a bunch of rewiring labor I would think.
c). I have seen ads for reworking my trickle charger for auto detect 240V input. Have people been using this method reliably and does it still have comparable efficiency ratings? I have seen the mod for as low as $250 or so...
Since you have a 240V dryer outlet that you can use, the most cost-effective 240 Volt charging is evseupgrade.com along with a 14-30 to L6-20 plug adapter. I highly recommend that you read the evseupgrade.com home page because it has a lot of answers to FAQs.

For a separate meter, I'm not clear on whether you need it for billing with SCE or for your own use. If you just want one to track your electrical usage you can install a refurbished utility meter. I installed a refurb utility meter like the one DaveinOlyWA describes here:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/blog.php?u=291&b=92" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Inexpensive and fairly easy as a DIY project if one is comfortable in working with electric lines, or an electrician could handle it easily. My version:
l620outletandmeter0286s.jpg

evseoutletandmeter0288s.jpg


One more thing I'll mention, since I seem to be the only one who does it, you can string your charge cable from the ceiling of your garage to keep it off the floor and out of the way. I just use some bicycle hooks on the ceiling to hold it.

I definitely have been reading up on the upgrade. From what I read, it doesn't have the full output of a dedicated L2 charger?
So instead of around 3300 watts, it would charge around 2800-watts? So roughly twice as fast as the trickle charger? How long does it take you to charge the battery generally? Is it around 10hrs instead of the usual 7hrs of a dedicated L2 charger?

Is the efficiency still in the 85% range with this modded trickle charger? Heat issues?
What about turning in the charger at the end of the lease..Is it detectable, or I would have to restore the cord back to original?
Also, is the dryer outlet with the slanted terminals (3 prong) compatible ? (or adapters needed?). Do you have the link to the website?

Yes..the only way from my to get around my SCE tier 5 costs, is to get a seperate meter.
At .32c/KWHR on the tier 5, the trickle charger runs about .50cents/hr to operate. Multiply that by 20hrs, and it is $10 to go from 40-80 miles. Not very economical at all. Like I said, my Diesel BMW can go 80 miles on $9 of fuel, cruising much faster than the LEAF. (have run in the 12's qtr mile, and 0-60 in 4.5 seconds!) My higher fwy averages on the BMW have been 45mpg. An environmental website averaged 49.x mpg in the 335d from Chicago to Newyork on 1 tank of gas! (813 miles). The new 4 cylinder diesel coming out is even more promising with around 180hp/260 Tq still.

So with a separate meter....I can get .12-.13 cents off peak rates in winter/summer. At that rate to charge the battery would only $4 Maximum. So If I can get between 40-80 miles on $40, I am ahead of petrol/diesel cars anyways.

My only fear is that with 1000/month driving, it will take forever to recoup the thousands of dollars for a L2 charger setup. So it is very intriguing to somehow bypass the current 240 volt dryer circuit though a separate utility meter...(cheaper labor costs I hope)...and then doing the evseupgrade.

And yes, I am sure Edison will not like the idea of me plugging in anything else in the 240v socket, but my dryer is gas, and the only other thing I plug in there is a 5hp air compressor with I use maybe once every 2 months. But hopefully they are not too strict about it, or will they even inspect/enforce it. I was thinking perhaps when the contractor has the wiring exposed for them, Edison would simply install their meter.
 
dgpcolorado said:
ELROY said:
...I'm still wondering how people get 100 miles on trips...(with some reportedly doing 55-60mph freeway speeds). I'm wondering if the dealership might have the tires underinflated. Do most people follow the tire pressure recommendation from Nissan, or do they run the highest pressure possible? (What PSI?)
It is possible to do 100 miles with some 60 mph, I've done it. But 100 miles all at 60 mph is unlikely except perhaps in very warm humid temperatures (lower air density = lower drag). Most 100+ mile trips on a single charge involve at least some lower speeds. Don't get hung up on it, the LEAF really doesn't have a 100 mile range under ordinary driving conditions for most people. The EPA range of 73 miles should be easy to do while the battery is new except in very cold temperatures or poor weather conditions (rain, snow, wind).

If you haven't already done so, please take a look at Tony's range chart.


Yes, air pressure in the tires makes a difference in mileage. The pressure suggested by Nissan is 36 PSI*. Many people here run them higher than that, up to the limit marked on the tires of 44 PSI. I usually run mine at 40 PSI and no lower than 38, but I also have to deal with large elevation changes, unlike most LEAF owners). I find that my curvy mountain road handling is pretty good at 40 PSI.

There are a number of reports here that suggest that the stock tires will wear more evenly at higher pressures. FWIW.

By the way, if you turn the car on while you are filling the tires it will flash the running lights when you hit the fill limit. It seemed to flash at about 38 PSI the last time I tried it, but I suppose it depends on the accuracy of the gauge and the tire pressure sensors. Useful to know if doing a tire repair out on the road somewhere, given the lack of a spare (I carry a plug kit since the Nissan supplied goop has been reported to damage the expensive tire pressure sensor).


*Some Nissan dealers don't realize that the heavy LEAF takes higher tire pressure than other car models, so be sure to check it after picking a LEAF up from a dealer after service.

I actually carry the chart in the car. Lots of variables of course, but at least I can tell by my mi/kw what range of the chart I fall in. I average 3.2 mi/kwhr normally, but the 80 mile trip was at 4.0 mi/kwhr....(Dash Read Out) I grew three trees for the first time.
Still trying to figure out how much the ECO mode helps. It does seem to show more regen lights on general braking. Is this accurately depicting that much more regen decel/braking when in ECO mode? Why wouldnt they have designed it to regen at maximum efficiency in the first place without resorting to a separate mode?

Also...like I said...going 50-60mph in the 65mph fwy in SoCal is pretty scary at times, and I didn't hardly use the AC at all even though it was 88F. Yet when it was all said and done, with the 40mph driving mixed in, I only got 80 miles till the -- -- -- range indicator.
Does anyone know the effect of having an extra 275lbs in passengers in addition to me (175lbs).???

I read these excerpts from the forum on people going faster on the fwy for longer distances than I did on my 80 mile trip...and they still have plenty of reserve left. Thats why I was wondering if perhaps something was wrong with my battery. I have also read about perhaps the battery needs "conditioning"...by charging it to 100% three times in a row..(do you also run it down to 0% at that point?). Has anyone actually noticed their battery charge being deeper after then initial few weeks?

Also...how many people actually refrain from charging to 100% as recommended by Nissan? Is it 50% of the average charging cycles only done to 100% capacity, or less? Has been a poll on this? And is the correlation of 100% capacity charging and degradation a substantial one?

Heres an example of some of the forum accounts pertaining to range that I was envying:

I drive 76 miles RT to work 5 days a week so I too beat the EPA rating. I arive home with between 19 and 30 miles left of the 76 miles around 74 of the miles are highway at 60 to 62 mph with no AC with only small hills in ECO mode for sure. When they add some local chargers I will try to up the speed to 65 as a test with knowing I can get a charge somewhere. (Gonewild)

91 miles on Monday with mixed driving (53mi freeway/39 miles city) at speeds exceeding 70mph, ECO, no A/C. I did stop for a 45 minute level II charge during lunch but when I got home I had 12 miles of range so I think I would have squeaked in without it. I'm really digging the regen on ECO mode. I would love to have a heavy regen option in normal drive. Can somone say software fix? (LBCev)

Today on my commute home I added a bit to test my range. My normal commute is about 60 miles, Foster City to Soquel, but it involves driving Hwy 17 an 1800 feet pass. Today I drove from Foster City to Moss Landing and back to Soquel, a distance of 94.6 miles. At Moss Landing, I just made a U-turn. This was during commute and I averaged slightly more than 60 mph not counting the climb up 17 which is traffic limited to about 55. The extra bit from Santa Cruz to Moss Landing is quite hilly, but I kept up with traffic at about 63 mph most of the time. I lost the mileage remaining readout with about 8 miles left to home, but never entered turtle mode. I'm very happy with that range.
-Corwin

I drove very carefully and in ECO once. It was 56 miles from Aliso Viejo to Santa Monica. It was 50 miles of highway at 60mph and I exited the freeway at MDR with 41 miles indicated remaining. Since it was only 4 miles to the charge stations at Santa Monica Place it was a very relaxing trip to the Westside. Plus, as the computer re-adapted to the 20-30mph of stop/go surface streets we parked in SM with 41 miles remaining still showing. Good little car! (TRONZ)
 
ELROY said:
....I definitely have been reading up on the upgrade. From what I read, it doesn't have the full output of a dedicated L2 charger?
So instead of around 3300 watts, it would charge around 2800-watts? So roughly twice as fast as the trickle charger? How long does it take you to charge the battery generally? Is it around 10hrs instead of the usual 7hrs of a dedicated L2 charger?

Is the efficiency still in the 85% range with this modded trickle charger? Heat issues?
What about turning in the charger at the end of the lease..Is it detectable, or I would have to restore the cord back to original?
Also, is the dryer outlet with the slanted terminals (3 prong) compatible ? (or adapters needed?). Do you have the link to the website?
This thread should help: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10318&p=236994#p236994
Also, Rev 2 of the EVSEupgrade is 16Ax240v=3.84 KW (http://evseupgrade.com/?x#faq)
Edit: Here's Phil's explanation: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10318&start=10#p236712

Reddy. (Not an expert, just read about it on MNL).
 
ELROY said:
Still trying to figure out how much the ECO mode helps. It does seem to show more regen lights on general braking. Is this accurately depicting that much more regen decel/braking when in ECO mode? Why wouldnt they have designed it to regen at maximum efficiency in the first place without resorting to a separate mode?
There are a couple of reasons for that. Some people prefer a gentler slowdown when you take your foot off the accelerator, like a gas car with an automatic transmission. Others prefer a stronger slowdown, like a manual transmission car in second gear. The D/ECO option gives you a choice. Another way to look at this is that some people like to modulate their light braking using accelerator pressure and avoiding the brake pedal whenever possible, while others like to use the brake pedal for all braking.

ECO does also limit the amount of power that can be used for climate control, which can be useful in extreme temperature conditions when trying to extend your range, or frustrating if you simply want your passengers to be comfortable and don't need the range.

As to the accuracy of the bubbles on the dash, they are only a rough measure, of course, but I think they are fairly accurate within the limits of their low resolution. A more precise measurement is available on the center console (Zero Emission button -> Energy Info.), but it can distract your driving to try to watch it there.

I haven't been able to observe any difference between D and ECO when using the brake pedal to slow down. In either mode careful pressure on the pedal can drive regen to the maximum the car will allow. That maximum itself is limited by the state of the battery, both charge level and temperature. Personally I tend to use D on the freeway and ECO in town.

Ray
 
Tier 5 is very expensive energy. Consider a solar panel or two. The extra meter will likely cost extra (for LADWP it is $8 a month) so reducing your use or creating your own power will greatly reduce your costs.

Charging elsewhere might be cheaper for you as well, if that is possible. If you can pay your work place .15 or .20 cents a KWH or a flat rate per month you could reduce your home use.

I lived on 120 for a year, and 240 is far more enjoyable. Some think the slower charging adds heat (Due to higher resistance) which would hurt the battery, but others will argue the heat has more time to dissapate, so slower is better. You are leasing, so I would advise getting the EVSE upgrade and trading it before you return the car. Using my dryer port was a hassle though, so an installed charger might be a good idea. There is less resistance in the line when using higher voltage, so it is more efficient. Quick Charge is even more efficient, but does create higher heat in a short amount of time. All of these have trade offs. WIth a Lease it is not as important to prolong the battery life, but you still want it to be as long ranged as you can for the 39 months you own it, so try to follow good battery practices - it is about the only maintenance issue this car has, and is easy once you understand it. Sounds like you have read enough here to know what we do at this time.

I went with Schnieder ($7-800), and any electrician should be able to install it for about $75. Trouble you may have is conditions that Edison places on the installation, although I believe they install the meter for free, they may like LADWP charge a service fee for it and insist on a dedicated charger.
 
Caracalover said:
Tier 5 is very expensive energy. Consider a solar panel or two. The extra meter will likely cost extra (for LADWP it is $8 a month) so reducing your use or creating your own power will greatly reduce your costs.
I haven't read this whole thread, but I'd also consider cutting home energy use. As I noted in another thread, something like http://www.p3international.com/products/special/p4400/p4400-ce.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; can help identify big users and vampires.

In PG&E land and have no EV but I'm area XB (http://www.pge.com/myhome/customerservice/financialassistance/medicalbaseline/understand/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) so I get allocated 11.0 or 11.7 kWh/day as a baseline and am on schedule E-1 (non-TOU).

My last electric bill (covered 9/13 thru 10/11) was for 253 kwh, costing me $34.30 w/taxes and crap, not including my gas bill (which was $10.10 w/taxes and crap for 9 therms). I was totally under my allocated baseline of 319 kwh for the month. This is with me being at home most of the time as I'm not working at the moment. The electricity would go even lower if I were working... However, I'm living alone. I'm sure if I had multiple people here, both would be a lot higher.

IMHO, the PG&E tiers, at least for my area are a joke (and rates are higher) for anyone w/a large house and multiple people living in it. I think my bill would be insane if I had AC, multiple people, hot tub, a pool and a BEV or two.
 
planet4ever said:
ELROY said:
Still trying to figure out how much the ECO mode helps. It does seem to show more regen lights on general braking. Is this accurately depicting that much more regen decel/braking when in ECO mode? Why wouldnt they have designed it to regen at maximum efficiency in the first place without resorting to a separate mode?
There are a couple of reasons for that. Some people prefer a gentler slowdown when you take your foot off the accelerator, like a gas car with an automatic transmission. Others prefer a stronger slowdown, like a manual transmission car in second gear. The D/ECO option gives you a choice. Another way to look at this is that some people like to modulate their light braking using accelerator pressure and avoiding the brake pedal whenever possible, while others like to use the brake pedal for all braking.

ECO does also limit the amount of power that can be used for climate control, which can be useful in extreme temperature conditions when trying to extend your range, or frustrating if you simply want your passengers to be comfortable and don't need the range.

As to the accuracy of the bubbles on the dash, they are only a rough measure, of course, but I think they are fairly accurate within the limits of their low resolution. A more precise measurement is available on the center console (Zero Emission button -> Energy Info.), but it can distract your driving to try to watch it there.

I haven't been able to observe any difference between D and ECO when using the brake pedal to slow down. In either mode careful pressure on the pedal can drive regen to the maximum the car will allow. That maximum itself is limited by the state of the battery, both charge level and temperature. Personally I tend to use D on the freeway and ECO in town.

Ray


Great info guys. I am normally a pretty technical guy, but I'm only 1 week into the electric vehicle scene. (Well I actually have a little electric scooter which does 17mph, 6 mile range, which made me fall in love with electric cars).

As far as my home, I have already converted to LED lighting almost everywhere. The porch, landscaping, chandelier, bedroom, bathrooms, etc. I even spent $100 for LED tubes to replace the two flourescent tube lights in the garge. My bill was definitely getting smaller. But in the scheme of things...the electric car is going to blow the KWs through the roof. I have driven about 350miles so far since last weekend, and charge for at least 10 hrs every day on average.

But i'm basically a car nut. I used to constantly test my BMW 335i and 335d. Ran low 11's, 0-60 in 3.1 seconds in the gas car, 130mph traps, and 12.9 in the diesel at 109mph. For over a year I had the fastest/quickest 335i in the nation. I have a GPS Vbox to log test results, and constantly adjusted settings and monitored stuff on the laptop. I actually had over 1.5 million views on youtube with hundreds of subscribers from the BMW performance scene. I used to marvel at how I could run 11 second qtr miles and still get over 30mpg back from the race track, or 45mpg in the diesel. So I have always had an appreciation for extreme efficiency. The 335d is one of the most powerful cars capable of getting 45mpg. Still remarkable that the LEAF battery has about 70% of the energy of a gallon of gasoline, yet you can go 80 miles on it! But I'm sure I will be in here posting my 0-60 times and qtr mile results with the LEAF :)
 
^^^
I'd imagine that neither of your BMWs are stock. Those times sound faster than any stock 335i or 335d could do, when measured by timing equipment at a track.

(I've taken my former stock 04 350Z and 02 Maxima to drag strip before so I have some idea of typical times given a hp rating and curb weight, besides "bench racing" by looking at times in magazines and various car web sites.)
 
cwerdna said:
^^^
I'd imagine that neither of your BMWs are stock. Those times sound faster than any stock 335i or 335d could do, when measured by timing equipment at a track.

(I've taken my former stock 04 350Z and 02 Maxima to drag strip before so I have some idea of typical times given a hp rating and curb weight, besides "bench racing" by looking at times in magazines and various car web sites.)

Yup, totally understand that

Here is a link to the 335d doing a 4.5 sec 0-60 time, high 12 sec qtr mile...with a 2nd gear launch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix2tbcc9p9o&feature=fvwrel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is a link to my fastest 60-130 time on the 335i

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2cfEpbx4nc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
BTW, I saw your comments on operating cost once you're into tier 5 electricity. Yep. There are some here on MNL who keep talking about how cheap it is to "fuel" a Leaf. Yeah, it sure is if you've got cheap electricity and are comparing to a not very efficient car...

You'd fall over if you haven't seen the rates at https://www.seattle.gov/light/accounts/rates/ac5_erps24.htm#rsc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.douglaspud.org/Service/2012RatesJuly12012.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (ignore the demand charges as I doubt a house would pull 50 kW at a time). I don't think we've gotten anyone here from Douglas County.

Electricity in CA can be a real ripoff. It is w/PG&E...
 
Caracalover said:
Tier 5 is very expensive energy. Consider a solar panel or two.
Or twenty or forty. I'm not from the SCE end of the state, so I haven't been keeping up with solar tradeoffs there, but it looks like there is a lot of discussion here: Official Southern California Edison thread

Certainly up here in PG&E land, and for my home, solar has saved our bacon. I'm part of a multi-generation family living under one roof, with a somewhat adjustable size from 5 to 9 people, two full kitchens and a couple of us who are very sensitive to heat. We average roughly 54kWh/day despite some attempts to conserve. That would put about 40% of our usage in tier 5 without the solar panels and would probably cost us somewhere close to $6,000/year on the standard rate schedule. In fact we pay about one fourth of that even though we only generate 60% of our electricity.

Ray
 
ELROY said:
dgpcolorado said:
If you haven't already done so, please take a look at Tony's range chart.

I actually carry the chart in the car. Lots of variables of course, but at least I can tell by my mi/kw what range of the chart I fall in. I average 3.2 mi/kwhr normally, but the 80 mile trip was at 4.0 mi/kwhr....(Dash Read Out) ... I only got 80 miles till the -- -- -- range indicator.
Does anyone know the effect of having an extra 275lbs in passengers in addition to me (175lbs).???

You pretty much nailed the expected range. At 4 miles/kWh, with a new battery at 21kWh useable at 70F (or warmer), 4 * 21 = 84 miles of range. If you look on the range chart, you will see that there were four miles left from Very Low Battery (when the GOM goes to "---"), Therefore your 80 miles plus 4 more equals 84 of range to turtle. Your LEAF's range autonomy couldn't be more perfect to our baseline model.

Sorry, there is no specific data on extra weight, because its effect is relatively small on steady speed level road. Either stop-and-go or up-and-down will have a greater impact to range. I offer a caution blurb on the range chart for those planning it close to max range with more than a driver.
 
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