ELROY
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 023406
Location: Camarillo, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:50 pm

Ingineer wrote:Unfortunately there is no diagnostic system on the 12v battery that will detect a shorted cell. I'm sure you'd find out pretty quickly when your Leaf refused to go ready though!

Both the A/C compressor and the eberspacher heater are run from the high-voltage. Only the climate control fan is 12v. BTW, the heater is a 6kW unit, so it can draw up to that, it's not limited to 4.5kW.

-Phil
Its amazing how inefficient the heater output is compared to the A/C. It always seems to take a great deal of time and power to get decent heat. Yet I always seem to be amazed at how little power the A/C is taking while blowing amazingly cold air. I would assume a regular ICE compressor takes more equivalent power from the engine that 250 watts or so.

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:02 am

Compressor operation is relatively efficient, even on an ICE vehicle.
That's why it is more efficient to leave the windows rolled up and run the AC, unless you are going very slowly, I think it is something like under 30 mph that AC operation versus ventilation are about the same.
See Mythbusters episode.
Unless you live in an area where you don't use heat very much, the resistance heating on the 2011 & 2012 LEAF, and also on the 2013 if you don't buy the heat pump system, is really a huge impact on vehicle range.
I have a 2011 and will continue to live with the resistance heating.
But in my opinion not having heat pump heating on an electric vehicle with a modest 21.5 kWh of usable capacity is a GROSS deficiency in 95% of the continental US.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

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dgpcolorado
Posts: 3139
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:56 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Dec 2011
Location: The Western Slope, Colorado

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:19 pm

ELROY wrote:Its amazing how inefficient the heater output is compared to the A/C. It always seems to take a great deal of time and power to get decent heat. Yet I always seem to be amazed at how little power the A/C is taking while blowing amazingly cold air. I would assume a regular ICE compressor takes more equivalent power from the engine that 250 watts or so.
The LEAF AC has an advantage over one in an ICE car in that it isn't working in a hot engine compartment. So the LEAF AC probably is a bit more efficient than the AC unit in an ICE car.

The use of a resistance heater, instead of a heat pump, in the 2011 and 2012 LEAF may have been due to the need to get the car to market rather than wait to get every last detail refined and optimized. Some late 2011s and all of the 2012s with the "Cold Weather Package" improved on it somewhat with the addition of the steering wheel and seat heaters. With the 2013 models Nissan has had time to introduce the more efficient heat pump. It is on ongoing process of improvement.

For me, the biggest failing of the early model resistance heater wasn't the fact that it is a big power drain but that there was no way to turn it off and use the CC system to blow air on the windshield to defog it. Since Nissan chose not to fix the problem with a firmware update, Ingineer came up with his own fix for the problem. The 2013 LEAF does, finally, have a "heater off" button.
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DoxyLover
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:52 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 9214
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:25 pm

ELROY wrote:I was wondering what voltage the climate control system uses. On one hand, I'm sure its not 12volts powering a 4.5kw heater system. Yet on A/C, a 300 watt draw or so might only be about 25 amps or so. Does the heater actually use the battery pack high voltage with the orange wires? The a/c compressor doesn't have high voltage orange wires going to it correct? And I would assume the ventilation fan is 12volts? So perhaps the Climate Control system works on a combination of high and low voltages? Again, I would assume only the heater element would have to be high voltage.
AFAIK, both the A/C compressor and resistive heater run on H/V. Although the compressor will often run down to 3-400 W once the car is cool, in extreme weather and/or when first cooling a hot car, the compressor will often run over 1KW. This is too large a load to run off of the 12V system.
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ELROY
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 023406
Location: Camarillo, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:58 pm

DoxyLover wrote:
ELROY wrote:I was wondering what voltage the climate control system uses. On one hand, I'm sure its not 12volts powering a 4.5kw heater system. Yet on A/C, a 300 watt draw or so might only be about 25 amps or so. Does the heater actually use the battery pack high voltage with the orange wires? The a/c compressor doesn't have high voltage orange wires going to it correct? And I would assume the ventilation fan is 12volts? So perhaps the Climate Control system works on a combination of high and low voltages? Again, I would assume only the heater element would have to be high voltage.
AFAIK, both the A/C compressor and resistive heater run on H/V. Although the compressor will often run down to 3-400 W once the car is cool, in extreme weather and/or when first cooling a hot car, the compressor will often run over 1KW. This is too large a load to run off of the 12V system.
Kind of scary...with all this high voltage running to various components besides the drivetrain...its just a matter of time before some pore technician gets electrocuted.

RLC
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:05 pm
Delivery Date: 07 May 2012
Leaf Number: 016060
Location: Minnesota

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:44 am

ELROY wrote: Kind of scary...with all this high voltage running to various components besides the drivetrain...its just a matter of time before some poor technician gets electrocuted.
I wouldn't worry too much about that; these cars are configured the same way hybrids are. The high voltage is only enabled when the car is booted up -- at all other times the battery is isolated by large relays so you only have voltage from the lead acid battery under the hood to worry about.. and as with any other vehicle that should be physically disconnected when working on the car.

The only exception to the above that I'm aware of would be during preconditioning of the LEAF, so you should treat an example in that state the same as you would one that was sitting in ready mode. In other words, not safe to work on because it is powered up.
- Sean

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Ingineer
Posts: 2741
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:09 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2011
Leaf Number: 6969
Location: Berkeley, California
Contact: Website

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:39 am

ELROY wrote:Kind of scary...with all this high voltage running to various components besides the drivetrain...its just a matter of time before some pore technician gets electrocuted.
If a "technician" manages to electrocute himself, he isn't much of a technician. All the high-voltage is bright orange, and every single connector has an interlock that shuts down the power instantly. You'd pretty much have to cut into 2 high-voltage wires at the same time and do so without shorting the shielding. Almost impossible!

As soon as any shielding is cut and shorted to either high-voltage line, the car will detect the leakage and shut down. In the event of any crash big enough to set off the air-bags, it will also shut down.

-Phil
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ELROY
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm
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Location: Camarillo, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:51 pm

Ingineer wrote:
ELROY wrote:Kind of scary...with all this high voltage running to various components besides the drivetrain...its just a matter of time before some pore technician gets electrocuted.
If a "technician" manages to electrocute himself, he isn't much of a technician. All the high-voltage is bright orange, and every single connector has an interlock that shuts down the power instantly. You'd pretty much have to cut into 2 high-voltage wires at the same time and do so without shorting the shielding. Almost impossible!

As soon as any shielding is cut and shorted to either high-voltage line, the car will detect the leakage and shut down. In the event of any crash big enough to set off the air-bags, it will also shut down.

-Phil
Good to know.
Kind of off subject, but if I replace the foglight bulbs with 25 watt LED units, will it trigger a bulb warning? I may possibly go with HID setup also, (prob around 35 watts each?).

I know my license plate bulb and front running light conversions to LEDs haven't caused any problem yet even though they consume less than 1/2 the wattage.

25 watts is pretty powerful for a LED unit. I wonder how bright they are.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-H11-H8-CREE- ... be&vxp=mtr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Ingineer
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:47 am

ELROY wrote:Kind of off subject, but if I replace the foglight bulbs with 25 watt LED units, will it trigger a bulb warning? I may possibly go with HID setup also, (prob around 35 watts each?).

I know my license plate bulb and front running light conversions to LEDs haven't caused any problem yet even though they consume less than 1/2 the wattage.

25 watts is pretty powerful for a LED unit. I wonder how bright they are.
The OEM bulbs are 55 watts IIRC, so you should be ok at anything under that. The circuits are not supervised other than by the fuse which will blow if you overload the circuit.

Be warned that there is a lot of junk on Ebay. You may find that even though they are specifying 5X 5 watt LEDs, they may not be driving them at 5 watts. I bet they aren't, as the heatsink doesn't appear to be up to the task. Also, many of the Chinese LED retrofits don't use proper current regulation, and can fail in a short time.

-Phil
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TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:26 pm

ELROY wrote:Also, when sitting on my break listening to the radio I usually have it only on accessory position so no other gauges are lit up.
As Ingineer pointed out, this is a BAD idea.
There is no good reason to leave the LEAF in ACC position.
If you are going to use 12V power for an extended period of time such as listening to the radio, you should always push the Start button twice to put in in ready mode, and then turn off the HVAC to minimize the high voltage potential power drains.
This is one of the big advantages of the LEAF versus an ICE.
With it in ready mode, the high voltage battery will keep the 12V battery charged.
As someone who has driven the voltage very low on the 12V battery in an ICE by listening to the radio for an extended period of time, and then had to jump start the ICE, that is not a problem in the LEAF. (Unless you're planning to listen to the radio for 25+ hours.)
Why would you just have the LEAF in ACC?
The LEAF does nothing to protect the 12V battery in ACC.
As reported in other posts, it doesn't do a very good job of protecting the 12V battery if you just leave it plugged in to the EVSE.
Leave it plugged into the EVSE while on a 5+ day trip, and you may find the 12V battery dead when you get home.
This is still a major software deficiency that Nissan has done NOTHING to correct.
With the current state of the LEAF software, it should be kept at a reasonable level of charge (>40%), NOT be plugged in, and if you're going to use the 12V, it should be in ready mode with the HVAC off.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

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