LEAFfan
Posts: 4828
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Leaf Number: 1855
Location: Phoenix Area

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:01 am

mwalsh wrote:
ELROY wrote:Not sure what GIDs are, or how to measure them, is there a thread on this?
Gids are named after one of their discoverers, Gary Giddings, and are measured with a Gidometer, which he happens to sell build kits for. Use the trusty search engine and you'll find many threads related to Gids and Gidometers.
Actually, I believe Turbo in AZ is the one that discovered the raw numbers, then gave garygid the info so he could make the meters. We need to change the name to TurboGids.
2013 LEAF SV Del. 2/28/13
2013 LEAF World Record for Most Miles Driven On One Charge-188 miles/8.8 m/kW h
4.8 kW DC PV ($ .91/W fully installed)/ Dec., 2010

LEAFfan
Posts: 4828
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 1855
Location: Phoenix Area

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:20 am

EVDRIVER wrote:Accelerating quickly is not more efficient.
It depends on what you do after accelerating. I can increase my m/kW h a lot by accelerating quickly, then coasting in N for a half mile.
2013 LEAF SV Del. 2/28/13
2013 LEAF World Record for Most Miles Driven On One Charge-188 miles/8.8 m/kW h
4.8 kW DC PV ($ .91/W fully installed)/ Dec., 2010

TLeaf
Forum Supporter
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Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:08 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 000225
Location: Renton, WA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:06 am

LEAFfan wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:Accelerating quickly is not more efficient.
It depends on what you do after accelerating. I can increase my m/kW h a lot by accelerating quickly, then coasting in N for a half mile.
But you would be even MORE efficient if you accelerated slowly and then coasted.. The only way your average power consumption would be any better is if your average speed (and hence your associated drag) was low enough to offset the extra power required during your more rapid acceleration.

LEAFfan
Posts: 4828
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 1855
Location: Phoenix Area

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:41 pm

TLeaf wrote:
LEAFfan wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:Accelerating quickly is not more efficient.
It depends on what you do after accelerating. I can increase my m/kW h a lot by accelerating quickly, then coasting in N for a half mile.
But you would be even MORE efficient if you accelerated slowly and then coasted.. The only way your average power consumption would be any better is if your average speed (and hence your associated drag) was low enough to offset the extra power required during your more rapid acceleration.
Nope, actually it isn't for shorter runs like a half mile. I've done it many times and I always gain more. Longer runs of at least a mile is where driving slow is much more efficient.
2013 LEAF SV Del. 2/28/13
2013 LEAF World Record for Most Miles Driven On One Charge-188 miles/8.8 m/kW h
4.8 kW DC PV ($ .91/W fully installed)/ Dec., 2010

User avatar
planet4ever
Posts: 4674
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:53 pm
Delivery Date: 02 May 2011
Leaf Number: 1537
Location: Morgan Hill, CA, south of San Jose

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:25 pm

TLeaf wrote:But you would be even MORE efficient if you accelerated slowly and then coasted.. The only way your average power consumption would be any better is if your average speed (and hence your associated drag) was low enough to offset the extra power required during your more rapid acceleration.
Well, let me think about that. Certainly rapid acceleration uses extra power during the acceleration. But it uses that power for a shorter period of time. Leaving drag out of the equation for the moment, are you claiming that rapid acceleration will use more energy to reach a given speed than slow acceleration will?

If so, we need to explore why that should be true. From a thermodynamic viewpoint, that would imply additional heat generation. Higher amperages could heat the battery, wires, inverter, and motor more, so this is feasible. But assuming LEAFfan is not talking about flooring it, I would be surprised if the additional energy loss was above the rounding error compared to the energy used to actually accelerate the car.

If we can agree that rapid acceleration does not use significantly more energy, then think about the velocity curve for acceleration followed by coasting, plotted against time. Draw a line at any particular speed across that. The time spent above that line will be shorter if the acceleration is more rapid. Since this is true for any speed where you draw the line, it seems clear that the energy lost to drag will always be lower with rapid acceleration.

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

ELROY
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 023406
Location: Camarillo, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:29 am

My latest test session was 58.5 miles with a 5.0 mile/kWh economy readout on the dash.
80 % Charge beginning
48PSI Tires.
48-65F Temps.

Mostly in town below 35mph.
About 16 miles of hwy driving 55mph at the end. (the Hwy driving didn't change my average from the 5.0)

Drove about 2 miles past the first LBW.
Took 3.85 hrs to charge. (L2 16A EVSE Upgrade)

I'm still a bit concerned that 5.0kWh driving only yielded about 56 miles till LBW.
100% charge conceivably would have only yielded about 11 more miles of driving.

So only 70 miles maybe at 100% charge to LBW.

You would think with any conceivable usable battery charge 21kwh x 5.0 m/kWh should at least yield 100 miles. I am no way near there. Even under very mild conditions.

Its almost as though I am getting pretty good economy, but the battery just doesn't hold that much? Specially considering the charging time was only 3.85 hrs.

Does this make sense?


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TonyWilliams
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:45 am

ELROY wrote:My latest test session was 58.5 miles with a 5.0 mile/kWh economy readout on the dash.
80 % Charge beginning
48PSI Tires.
48-65F Temps.

Mostly in town below 35mph.
About 16 miles of hwy driving 55mph at the end. (the Hwy driving didn't change my average from the 5.0)

Drove about 2 miles past the first LBW.
Took 3.85 hrs to charge. (L2 16A EVSE Upgrade)

I'm still a bit concerned that 5.0kWh driving only yielded about 56 miles till LBW.
100% charge conceivably would have only yielded about 11 more miles of driving.

So only 70 miles maybe at 100% charge to LBW.

You would think with any conceivable usable battery charge 21kwh x 5.0 m/kWh should at least yield 100 miles. I am no way near there. Even under very mild conditions.

Its almost as though I am getting pretty good economy, but the battery just doesn't hold that much? Specially considering the charging time was only 3.85 hrs.

Does this make sense?
Great data set. 48F degrees on the battery would certainly account for a lot of loss (about 5%). But, 5% less than 21kWh is still about 20kWh, or 100 miles range at 5 miles/kWh.

You got about 70 mile range. Can you beg, borrow, buy or steal a Gidmeter? Where is your car (Phoenix?)?

ELROY
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 023406
Location: Camarillo, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:07 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
ELROY wrote:My latest test session was 58.5 miles with a 5.0 mile/kWh economy readout on the dash.
80 % Charge beginning
48PSI Tires.
48-65F Temps.

Mostly in town below 35mph.
About 16 miles of hwy driving 55mph at the end. (the Hwy driving didn't change my average from the 5.0)

Drove about 2 miles past the first LBW.
Took 3.85 hrs to charge. (L2 16A EVSE Upgrade)

I'm still a bit concerned that 5.0kWh driving only yielded about 56 miles till LBW.
100% charge conceivably would have only yielded about 11 more miles of driving.

So only 70 miles maybe at 100% charge to LBW.

You would think with any conceivable usable battery charge 21kwh x 5.0 m/kWh should at least yield 100 miles. I am no way near there. Even under very mild conditions.

Its almost as though I am getting pretty good economy, but the battery just doesn't hold that much? Specially considering the charging time was only 3.85 hrs.

Does this make sense?
Great data set. 48F degrees on the battery would certainly account for a lot of loss (about 5%). But, 5% less than 21kWh is still about 20kWh, or 100 miles range at 5 miles/kWh.

You got about 70 mile range. Can you beg, borrow, buy or steal a Gidmeter? Where is your car (Phoenix?)?
I'm in Southern California, Ventura County.
Car is barely of 3 months old.
Has never been quick charged or run to turtle.
I charged it last month to 100% for about 2 wks, so it should be balanced out okay.

Off Topic.
I was just driving around a Tesla Model S, P85 today.

Image
Image
Image
Decided to take a video of an acceleration run with 3 people in the car total. Not bad for well over 5000lbs of running weight!

ELROY
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 023406
Location: Camarillo, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:22 am

I have noticed some things with my range gauge which I'm not sure is normal. Today I hit LBW at 7 miles. Drove home and parked it with 4 miles remaining and 1 bar. I went out later and it still had 4 miles on the GOM. I only drove 1.9 miles miles and parked. Turned it on and next thing I know is I am getting the VLBW. 5 Batt temp bars, 50F ambient temps. Since I hit VLBW, I am going to charge it to 100% to see how long it is going to take. It says 7 hrs /23hr (120/240V). I suspect it will be significantly shorter than 7 hrs on my EVSE Upgrade + charger. Does anyone know how long it should take to charge from VLBW?

I was logging my trips on 80% charge, and it seems that it is hard to get much over 40 miles till I am on the last bar or so. Seem like 100 miles in everyday driving would have been wishful thinking, LOL.

Also, when I charge to 100%, it seems that it drops from 12bars to 10 bars very quickly, sometimes in only 5-7 miles. So compared to my chart below, the mileage increase from 80% to 100% charge will be barely a few miles more.

I am still wondering if there might be something wrong with my battery. It's just something I suspected from the day I picked up the car. (10/27/2012).

Image

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surfingslovak
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:31 am

ELROY wrote:I am still wondering if there might be something wrong with my battery. It's just something I suspected from the day I picked up the car.
ImageELROY, the numbers you posted look perfectly reasonable. If you are still concerned about the battery, is there a chance that you could put a Gid meter to your LEAF? The recharge from VLBW to full should take somewhere between 6:45 and 7:00 hours. It's a hair over 7 hours from turtle to full on a new car, I believe.

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