kg4bec
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:14 pm

Nubo wrote:
ELROY wrote:I noticed my steering wheel is often either baking hot, or doesn't work at all when I am driving at times. Is there some kind of a timer in which it only works for a few minutes or something? Does anyone else have this problem of the steering heater not working at times when you want it to, even though the switch light stays on?
This is apparently a "feature". I'm sure there's a Japanese engineer somewhere who has an explanation. I'd love to hear it. :roll:
I get the same behavior and can only assume the steering wheel heater is driven by a thermostat. Once it shuts off, it takes a long time (minutes) to come back on again.

Regards, Bert
SV Glacier Pearl
Reserved: 17-May-2010
RAQ: 1-Aug-2011
Ordered: 8-Aug-2011
AV Assessment: 26-Aug-2011 (planning to cash-and-carry)
Delivery: December 2011->week of Dec 02 -> week of Dec 10 -> DELIVERED 02-Dec-2011!! Woo Hoo!

ELROY
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:49 am

planet4ever wrote:
ELROY wrote:Secondly, is there a reason why the Miles/KWHR gauge is stuck at maximum for quite a bit of delay when your resume acceleration after coasting?
Yes, there is a reason, though it is somewhat bogus. They are trying to tell you that you aren't using any 'new' energy at all from the battery, just working off what you saved by regen.

Ray
Is this something that Nissan documents as the proper operation of the gauge? I guess its kind of nice to know how long after leaving the stop sign you are running on "recovered" energy. I assume as long as it is pegged to maximum it is on that recovered energy. But yes, I wonder how accurate it is?

One thing I will say is that in 3 wks of driving, I have about 800 mils on the car. This is more than I drive my Honda Civic or BMW on average (before acquiring the LEAF). So it just goes to show, that for many people, most of their driving will fall within the range capabilities of the LEAF.

Secondly, from the looks of it, Nissan is really cost cutting with the base 2013 model. Plastic hubcaps, no LED headlights, etc. So Im kind of glad I got the 2012 model. But on the other hand, they will have a option for a much larger capacity on board charger.

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planet4ever
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:04 pm

ELROY wrote:
planet4ever wrote:
ELROY wrote:Secondly, is there a reason why the Miles/KWHR gauge is stuck at maximum for quite a bit of delay when your resume acceleration after coasting?
Yes, there is a reason, though it is somewhat bogus. They are trying to tell you that you aren't using any 'new' energy at all from the battery, just working off what you saved by regen.
Is this something that Nissan documents as the proper operation of the gauge? I guess its kind of nice to know how long after leaving the stop sign you are running on "recovered" energy. I assume as long as it is pegged to maximum it is on that recovered energy. But yes, I wonder how accurate it is?
It is documented in the owner's manual, though I find the section structure exceedingly arcane:
Dot matrix crystal display
. Trip computer
. . Energy economy
The instant energy economy mode shows the instant energy economy via a moving bar graph. When regenerated energy is being stored in the Li-ion battery while driving, the instant energy economy display will show the maximum value. The maximum value will then continue to be displayed until the regenerated power is consumed.
What kind of a geeky name is "Dot matrix crystal display", and what does this have to do with where I go on my trips?
ELROY wrote:Secondly, from the looks of it, Nissan is really cost cutting with the base 2013 model. Plastic hubcaps, no LED headlights, etc. So I'm kind of glad I got the 2012 model. But on the other hand, they will have a option for a much larger capacity on board charger.
I don't think we know yet, but my personal guess is that the faster charger won't even be an option on the base model. Some people are excited by that option, but I'm not one of them, because I rarely charge away from home. The current 3.3kW charger is much faster than I really need at home.

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

ELROY
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:47 am

I did my second long trip to test the range on the car. Almost identical results to the first 80 miles trip.
70% freeway driving. (60mph). 30% in town (0-45mph). 55F ambient temps. 100% Trickle Charge 30 minutes before embarking on trip.
approx 700ft elevation climb on the way there, and then back down on the way back.

80.3 Miles Total Trip Length
12 Bars 100% Start.
1 Range bar remaining at end of trip.
3 miles: Range remaining at end of trip (Flashing).
23:00hrs Remaining Charge Required Displayed before plugging in charger at end of trip.
4.3 miles KWh economy for this trip on the center cluster display.

Does this sound about average?

So would I calculate 23hrs x 11 gids=253
253 gids x 80wh=20240KWh.

So even though it only said 3 miles range remaining with 1 bar, I turned of the car, and when I turned it back on , there were no bars remaining and ------ range. Is this normal? Range goes down to nothing on restarts when you are really low on battery.

So given this information. how much further could I have gone? What is considered the low battery warning you are talking about? First the range figure flashes around 8 miles or so, then the yellow gas pump light came on. When I restarted it, the vocal low battery warning came on. So do you consider it down to the last 1 bar when there are no bars showing, and no range? Was I still at a mild state of discharge? Just trying to figure out how many more miles I could have traveled at this point. (80.3 miles on the charge)

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surfingslovak
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:02 pm

Nice trip. Apparently, you haven't reached the very low battery warning, but were getting pretty close. The VLB is represented by three flashing dashes and a very low battery alert combined with a prompt to look for a charging station on the center console. There are about 1.3 kWh usable energy left in the battery. All things being equal, your Leaf would go 1.3 kWh x 4.3 m/kWh = 5.6 miles. Please note that while a Gid is nominally 80 Wh, you won't get that out of the battery, and I did not use this value in my previous calculations. At the most, 75 Wh usable are available per Gid. We have seen lower values between 68 to 72 Wh as well.

ELROY
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:13 pm

surfingslovak wrote:Nice trip. Apparently, you haven't reached the very low battery warning, but were getting pretty close. The VLB is represented by three flashing dashes and a very low battery alert combined with a prompt to look for a charging station on the center console. There are about 1.3 kWh usable energy left in the battery. All things being equal, your Leaf would go 1.3 kWh x 4.3 m/kWh = 5.6 miles. Please note that while a Gid is nominally 80 Wh, you won't get that out of the battery, and I did not use this value in my previous calculations. At the most, 75 Wh usable are available per Gid. We have seen lower values between 68 to 72 Wh as well.
So probably 5.6 miles till the Turtle?
So this amount I ran it to 3miles...is probably not too exhaustive on the battery life?
Also, it is normal to restart the car and have the bar and mileage go to zero, even though a couple seconds before it showed 1 bar and 3 miles?

Do you have an Active E? How do you like it? The i3 will be an interesting car.

I noticed many EVs, Ford, Mini Cooper, etc...have a much bigger motor than 80KW, but many of them don't make the 200lbs or Tq, or go any faster than 94 mph, kind of interesting.

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surfingslovak
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:03 pm

ELROY wrote: So probably 5.6 miles till the Turtle?
Yes, if you continued to drive with 4.3 m/kWh energy economy. Many drivers slow down when the car is about to run out of battery, which results in higher economy, and a bit more range. For example, if you decided to crawl at 16-17 mph the rest of the way, you might be able to eek out over ten miles from the Leaf, even if you reached VLB already. Some of us have done foolish things like that. It really comes down to how you drive, and some environmental factors. But you probably know that better than I do, given your previous experience. That said, I prefer to tally remaining usable energy, which is a bit more meaningful to me than an arbitrary range prediction.
ELROY wrote: So this amount I ran it to 3miles...is probably not too exhaustive on the battery life?
Going below 20% state of charge is generally not recommended if you wanted to get optimal battery life. This might matter to owners, but it's less of a concern for lessees. The Leaf will not allow you to take the cell voltage below a certain threshold, wich is quite conservative, typically above 3 V. The cells of this chemistry are generally considered to be fully discharged at about 2.5 V. The discharge curve is pretty steep at that point, and there is not much energy left in the battery. Only about 2% of a full charge remain as reserve at the end of turtle mode. From a practical perspective, all that matters is that we are not able to brick the battery, no matter what we do. There are reasonable safety margins built in.
ELROY wrote: Also, it is normal to restart the car and have the bar and mileage go to zero, even though a couple seconds before it showed 1 bar and 3 miles?
Yes, I have observed this on occassion as well. You have not reached the very low battery warning until the three dashes are flashing, and have about 1.3 kWh usable left at that point.
ELROY wrote: Do you have an Active E? How do you like it? The i3 will be an interesting car.
Yes, indeed. The ActiveE is essentially a nicely executed engineering mule. Although it's not as refined in some respects as the Leaf, it's very fun to drive. It has a bit longer range too. I grew up in Germany, and drove an Audi until recently. The planted feeling, and accurate controls you get in the ActiveE, are a welcome change from the Leaf. It's a very heavy vehicle for its size. Some went as far as calling it an 'electric tank'. The production car, the i3, should be closer to the Leaf in its execution, but with the typical BMW design touches, and lot less weight.
ELROY wrote: I noticed many EVs, Ford, Mini Cooper, etc...have a much bigger motor than 80KW, but many of them don't make the 200lbs or Tq, or go any faster than 94 mph, kind of interesting.
I think this is related to the fact that there is only a reduction gear, and when you go at that speed, the electric motor is running at fairly high rpm, and is no longer at its peak efficiency. We might need different gearing to go faster. Then there is aerodynamic drag, which increases exponentially. While it only takes 10 kW to sustain 50 pm, would take close to 26 kW to sustain 80 mph, and 40 kW to sustain 100 mph. Not very practical for the current generation of EVs. The BMW i8 can go 155 mph before the electronic limiter kicks in, but that's a parallel hybrid with two drivetrains.Image
Last edited by surfingslovak on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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planet4ever
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:00 am

ELROY wrote:Also, it is normal to restart the car and have the bar and mileage go to zero, even though a couple seconds before it showed 1 bar and 3 miles?
In my (relatively limited) experience the GuessOMeter always shows 3 just before going to "---", so you were probably pretty close to the edge. What Phil (Ingineer) has told us is that the car's computers can really only estimate the battery's state of charge while powered up; I think he said this is done by Coulomb counting into and out of the battery using a measuring device which is not very precise. But when you power down the computer can get a more accurate measure of the battery's state (using no-load voltage?). So is it not surprising that the charge reported at power up would differ from prior to power down.

Note: I'm not an EE, so I may well be misrepresenting this.

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

ELROY
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:45 pm

surfingslovak wrote:
Yes, indeed. The ActiveE is essentially a nicely executed engineering mule. Although it's not as refined in some respects as the Leaf, it's very fun to drive. It has a bit longer range too. I grew up in Germany, and drove an Audi until recently. The planted feeling, and accurate controls you get in the ActiveE, are a welcome change from the Leaf. It's a very heavy vehicle for its size. Some went as far as calling it an 'electric tank'. The production car, the i3, should be closer to the Leaf in its execution, but with the typical BMW design touches, and lot less weight.
Interesting about how much the ActiveE weighs! I took a modified 135i to the dragstrip with about a 3150 race weight. Ran a 11.2 second qtr mile time. 0-60 in 3 seconds flat. See video of me running against a new GTR Black Edition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1m3KvPjCjc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I actually used to be a BMW technician years ago.

Today I did a trip with mixed driving. 70% highway. 30% surface roads.

56.5 Miles
12 Bars Start (100% charge)
2 Bars End. (17 mile range remaining)
18Hrs Charge need to reach 100% again.

This time I took the slower side roads up the grade to the next town. On the way back I came down the freeway for the 2.2 mile 7% down hill grade. Interestingly enough this time the estimated range really started ticking upwards. At last 5-7 miles or so. When I reached the level fwy cruising at 60mph, the economy meter stay pegged at maximum for a good 1.8 miles. Still trying to figure out why the range would go up 3x more than the car ran on the max pegged econometer. But I wouldnt expect it to. But I do watch this process much more now, and am kind of amazed how you can come to a stop, and then accelerate away from an intersection up to a pretty good speed...(usually 34-45mph) on the supposedly recovered energy. Now I am curious as to just how accurate this is. If it is representative, its no wonder these cars and Hybrids have such phenomenal city economy. Most cars are like my diesel. I can get 44mpg on the level highway, but I average 18mpg around town. So a big question is why does Regen only register up to 30KW during regen/braking on the energy screen?? I that the max the car is limited to? (Why?). Or is the gauge just maxed out in the reading only?

On my expensive tier 5 (.32cent KWh) SCE domestic plan it was running about .50cents/hr to charge with my standard 1.5kw EVSE. So a very low battery might take close to 20hrs (25hrs indicated on the dash) or $10.00.
So again, $10 to travel from 60-80 miles, not too impressive.

I switched to a Time Of Use EV plan.

Winter Rate Peak: 10am-6pm
.13 cents per kwhr Tier 1 / summer .19
.27 cents per kwhr Tier 2 / summer .60
Winter Rate Off Peak: 6pm-12am
.12 cents per kwhr Tier 1 / summer .13
.24 cents per kwhr Tier 2 / summer .27
Winter Rate Super Off Peak: 12am-6am (only a 6hr period...need the EVSE upgrade!)
.11 cents per kwhr Tier 1
.17 cents per kwhy Tier 2

So this is much more reasonable.
Now that same 20 hr charge would theoretically cost me about $4.52 to drive that same 60-80 miles.
So thats more like it. Although its not as cheap as the SCE Time Of USE EV Separate Meter Plan...its still better economy than any ICE car. So I think I will be good with this without having to justify the $1000 electrician charge to add an extra meter. But come summertime, its going to be hard to swallow a .60 cents/kwhr during peak time. So perhaps before June I will decide if I still want to get a separate meter.

The Separate Meter Plan is

On Peak: 12pm-9pm
.22 kwh winter / .28 summer
Off Peak: 9pm-noon (15 hrs!!)
.12 kwh winter / .13 summer

So in this case, it might cost me $3.46 to recharge the battery. So about a dollar cheaper than the preceding plan, and a whopping 1/3 as much as the regular domestic service I was on.

The problem with the tiered plan is I believe it raises everything in the house to a higher rate once you reach the tiers. I assume even my usage in the super off peak times would go toward raising my entire house into the next tier. Does anyone know if this is how the tiers work? So really its not JUST the cost of the electricity to charge your EV, but you have to figure the EV is also raising the cost of all Electricity that you use. If this is so, then again, it looks like the seperate meter plan would be much better if I plan on using the home AC during the summertime.

But all in all, I love my LEAF. I have a $57000 2011 BMW M-Sport 335d that is a blast to drive (500lbs TQ, 0-60 4.5 seconds). Maybe its the new car factor, but I have driven this car much more than anyother car I have had in such a short time. I just acquired the car October 27th and I already have a 1000 miles on the LEAF. At this rate I will be doing 12,000 miles a year. By comparison, my 335d is now 2yrs old almost and only has 18000 miles on it. My Honda Civic, (which this car theoretically replaces) was only averaging about 400 miles a month. So way more mileage on the LEAF. Perhaps its because of all this range evaluating that I have been doing. I have been driving places just to drive and test the car, LOL. But its such a pleasure to drive the car. Other than the fear of the battery losing significant range/capacity, I am more than happy with this car. When you look at 35 miles on a Volt, or 11 miles on the Prius in EV mode, its impressive that the LEAF can even go 60 miles in my book. Also, if you averaged 35 miles a day, you would be averaging 12,000 miles a year. This goes to show on average, the LEAF can fit the range needs for a great % of our driving demands.

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planet4ever
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:38 am

ELROY wrote:So a big question is why does Regen only register up to 30KW during regen/braking on the energy screen?? I that the max the car is limited to? (Why?). Or is the gauge just maxed out in the reading only?
I believe I read that people have measured up to 40kW regen, so your guess about the gauge seems to be at least partly right. But if you think about it a minute, Quick Charge is limited to something less than 50kW, and that's just up to 50% full or so. After that the charge rate tapers. I suspect that what the Nissan engineers were up against was that they didn't want their batteries to be charged at anything more than 2C, even in the best of circumstances.
ELROY wrote:The problem with the tiered plan is I believe it raises everything in the house to a higher rate once you reach the tiers. I assume even my usage in the super off peak times would go toward raising my entire house into the next tier. Does anyone know if this is how the tiers work?
That's certainly the way it works up here in PG&E land, and I would rather expect it's the same way down there for SCE. You should check the Official Southern California Edison thread for a definitive answer.

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

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