alanlarson
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 1:59 am
Delivery Date: 24 May 2014
Leaf Number: 339296

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:55 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:For the future, always have the LEAF in Ready-to-drive mode (green car icon on dash) when using it to jump another car. That way the main traction battery is being used to support the 12 V battery. And be sure to attach the negative jump cable to a fitting away from the battery terminal because there is a sensor attached to the negative terminal.
What is this sensor, and why does it matter? The entire leaf, and all of its possibly delicate electronics is connected to the positive terminal, so why connect there?

Seriously, if you want the current for the jump to come from the battery, and be most isolated from the leaf by the low impedance of the battery, you should connect to the leaf's battery, both terminals. That way, if you get inductive spikes from the other car's system, it goes straight to your battery, and the (small) resistance of the ground cable and connection in the leaf is bypassed.

So, what is this magic sensor that people refer to, and why would it affect things?

Whatever you do, make sure that the last connection made, and the first removed, is ground to a point away from the battery on the car being started, so the (hopefully small) spark will not happen near the battery.

QueenBee
Posts: 1564
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:14 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 2062
Location: Bellevue (Seattle), WA

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:25 pm

alanlarson wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote:For the future, always have the LEAF in Ready-to-drive mode (green car icon on dash) when using it to jump another car. That way the main traction battery is being used to support the 12 V battery. And be sure to attach the negative jump cable to a fitting away from the battery terminal because there is a sensor attached to the negative terminal.
What is this sensor, and why does it matter? The entire leaf, and all of its possibly delicate electronics is connected to the positive terminal, so why connect there?

Seriously, if you want the current for the jump to come from the battery, and be most isolated from the leaf by the low impedance of the battery, you should connect to the leaf's battery, both terminals. That way, if you get inductive spikes from the other car's system, it goes straight to your battery, and the (small) resistance of the ground cable and connection in the leaf is bypassed.

So, what is this magic sensor that people refer to, and why would it affect things?

Whatever you do, make sure that the last connection made, and the first removed, is ground to a point away from the battery on the car being started, so the (hopefully small) spark will not happen near the battery.
It's a current sensor. I presume the issue is the car will see that more current is going into the battery than is normal and then throw an error code or maybe it could cause the battery to be overcharged? I'm not sure if anyone has described WHY it's a good idea to not connect to the negative terminal but it's been made clear that it is a good idea...

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:53 am

alanlarson wrote:What is this sensor, and why does it matter? The entire leaf, and all of its possibly delicate electronics is connected to the positive terminal, so why connect there?

Seriously, if you want the current for the jump to come from the battery, and be most isolated from the leaf by the low impedance of the battery, you should connect to the leaf's battery, both terminals. That way, if you get inductive spikes from the other car's system, it goes straight to your battery, and the (small) resistance of the ground cable and connection in the leaf is bypassed.

So, what is this magic sensor that people refer to, and why would it affect things?

Whatever you do, make sure that the last connection made, and the first removed, is ground to a point away from the battery on the car being started, so the (hopefully small) spark will not happen near the battery.
Completely wrong.
See the instructions from Ingineer (Phil Sadow) inventor of evseupgrade who knows what he is talking about at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 10#p148133" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Read the whole topic as there are more details and pictures later in the topic.

The LEAF battery is a small capacity low CCA and is not suitable for jump starting. But with the LEAF in Ready you have the very robust DC to DC power supply providing the power which is what you need.

QueenBee is correct that connecting direct to LEAF battery mainly generates risk of causing an error code. But direct connection of both leads to a battery is always a bad idea due to hydrogen gas explosion risk.

But the bigger risk of that is on the vehicle that has the discharged battery that you are jumping. So the connections on that vehicle should be done first using ground away from the battery and removed last after the vehicle is running.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

69800
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:21 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jan 2012
Leaf Number: 16583
Location: North Idaho

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:42 pm

RegGuheert is on the right track.


I put a volt meter in the acc outlet and told my wife to start watching how long it stays at 14.4 before it drops on here 20 mile commute. I have noticed that the 2 year old battery never seems to have a full charge. For the last 2 weeks she said it never stayed at 14.4 for more than a few minutes. Then suddenly today she said she left work and it stayed at 14.4 the whole way home. WTF???? Once in 2 weeks????

This charge profile is not going to work. I am willing to bet if anyone with a 2 year old battery or older would go have a proper load test done they would find the battery would not pass. Something is very wrong with the charging algorithm.

Now I have a few comments to add.
1. We know the onboard dc to dc charge system is not working

2. The original batteries in the 2011 2012 cars were manufactured in Japan and they are a much higher quality battery.

3. 99% of the batteries made in the US are Johnson Controls which are Junk! I am sure the Smyna plant is using one of these.

4. In the US only East Penn/Decka , Enyersys, Trojan, Concord and a few other make the highest quality batteries in the US. They are the ones who make the AGM batteries. I will not use anything from Johnson Controls. Delco used to be great until Johnson got them too.

5. Someone suggested a deep cycle style battery and I think that would be very wise if you can find one that fits.

6. Installing an onboard charger that puts out say around 5 or 6 amps hardwired to run during L1 or L2 recharge time would be excellent. (preferably a desulphater type) I am going to look into this along with a deep cycle battery. By the way Optima used to be great until Johnson Control bought them. Now they are hit and miss. (many only last 2 years) The old one in my diesel tractor is 14 years old but it was an original Optima

7. Do not wait for Nissan to solve your problem. I doubt it will happen.

8. The lithiums were a consideration but they need to be held at a much higher voltage than the leaf will give them so they are out. Show me a lithium that is 4 years old in a leaf and I will reconsider this one.

9. The only other option is to buy a cheap battery and replace it every 2 years.

My Two Cents

PS This is kind of what I am thinking. Wheelchair batteries need to be good. Amazon


VMAX857 AGM Deep Cycle Group U1 Battery Replacement for Interstate DCS-33H, DCS33H 12V 35Ah Wheelchair Battery
by VMAX Wheelchair
Be the first to review this item
Price: $104.99 & FREE Shipping
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Ships from and sold by bargainshore.

1-L=7.7" W=5" H=6.1" . Screw in post Terminal. Float Service Life span of 5 to 8 years.
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4-Warranty applies only if sold by an Authorized Seller. Amazon Authorized seller: bargainshore.
5-goto http://www.amazon.com/shops/bargainshore" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for VMAXTANKS categorized offers, selection and more savings on package deals for two or more batteries.
2012 SV Delivered Jan 2012
DOM 10/11 Sequence 16583
28000 miles. Never updated.
Leaf Spy Pro Ah-60.09/ SOH-91%/Hx-89.61

donald
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:45 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Jul 2013

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:58 pm

daaxix wrote:...... I had just jumped my ICE car with the Leaf before our road trip, twice
...
AHHHHHHH!!! :o

No, don't DO that!!!!


I don't know the rules in the US, but you might have invalidated the warranty doing that.

These are the two things that could happen. Firstly, if the battery is not ICE-cranking capable it might be a lower discharge battery type that cannot sustain cranking loads without damage.

Secondly, if the on-board inverter is active and you try to pull 1000A through it, anything could happen.

If your car is not charging up the 12V battery properly after cranking an ICE then you might well have damaged it.

If you are absolutely desperate to get an ICE going you can charge up the ICE battery with the EV, but just don't crank when you are doing it. Better still, disconnect the ICE battery and use the EV to charge that now isolated battery up.

Page 6-10 of the manual I have:
LEAF cannot be used as a booster vehicle
because it cannot supply enough
power to start a gasoline engine. However,
a gasoline engine vehicle can be
used to jump start LEAF’s 12-volt
battery.

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:57 am

donald wrote:
daaxix wrote:...... I had just jumped my ICE car with the Leaf before our road trip, twice
...
AHHHHHHH!!! :o

No, don't DO that!!!!


I don't know the rules in the US, but you might have invalidated the warranty doing that.

These are the two things that could happen. Firstly, if the battery is not ICE-cranking capable it might be a lower discharge battery type that cannot sustain cranking loads without damage.

Secondly, if the on-board inverter is active and you try to pull 1000A through it, anything could happen.

If your car is not charging up the 12V battery properly after cranking an ICE then you might well have damaged it.

If you are absolutely desperate to get an ICE going you can charge up the ICE battery with the EV, but just don't crank when you are doing it. Better still, disconnect the ICE battery and use the EV to charge that now isolated battery up.

Page 6-10 of the manual I have:
LEAF cannot be used as a booster vehicle
because it cannot supply enough
power to start a gasoline engine. However,
a gasoline engine vehicle can be
used to jump start LEAF’s 12-volt
battery.
You really should read and study the posts from Ingineer.
See the links I included above.

You are correct that the Nissan manual advises against using the LEAF to start an ICE.
But they likely did that because way too many people would do it wrong.

It can only be done safely and correctly with the LEAF in Ready mode and needs to be done following all the steps Ingineer clearly outlined.
The DC to DC converter is rated for 1.7 kW or about 135 amps.
See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... er#p219510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
It is current limited.
Has been used by lots of people to power inverters during loss of grid power and to start ICE vehicles.

Whether Nissan would attempt to void a warranty for doing it is a legal question. I am not an attorney and never give legal advice.

But if done correctly following everything Ingineer outlined the LEAF is a marvelous tool for starting an ICE vehicle with a dead battery. Or even a LEAF with a dead 12 volt battery.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

donald
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:45 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Jul 2013

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:04 pm

TimLee wrote:The DC to DC converter is rated for 1.7 kW or about 135 amps.
See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... er#p219510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
It is current limited..
If it is current limited then it won't make 12V under a 1000A load. The impedance of the load (the starter motor) under cranking is, say, around 900A at 9V, around 0.01 ohm. So at 135A it'd deliver 1.35V.

If you try to draw 900A off a low discharge lead acid battery, the plates will fragment as they are not designed to take such a current load.

You either need a 900A capable generator, and/or a cranking battery.

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:56 pm

donald wrote:If it is current limited then it won't make 12V under a 1000A load. The impedance of the load (the starter motor) under cranking is, say, around 900A at 9V, around 0.01 ohm. So at 135A it'd deliver 1.35V.

If you try to draw 900A off a low discharge lead acid battery, the plates will fragment as they are not designed to take such a current load.

You either need a 900A capable generator, and/or a cranking battery.
Correct, it will voltage sag and current limit.

But where are getting the idea that starting an ICE with a weak battery could ever attempt to pull 1000 amps?

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

69800
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:21 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jan 2012
Leaf Number: 16583
Location: North Idaho

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:04 pm

I am now considering this Exide Edge AGM battery. $160 with a 4 year free replacement warrenty. Looks like and exact fit however most battery sites are not up to date with the leaf. Fits the Prius. Agm has a much lower self discharge that wet cells.

http://www.amazon.com/Exide-FP-AGM51R-S ... B00AAX3KXG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Exide Edge FP-AGM51R Flat Plate AGM Sealed Automotive Battery
by Exide
2012 SV Delivered Jan 2012
DOM 10/11 Sequence 16583
28000 miles. Never updated.
Leaf Spy Pro Ah-60.09/ SOH-91%/Hx-89.61

donald
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:45 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Jul 2013

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:19 am

TimLee wrote:But where are getting the idea that starting an ICE with a weak battery could ever attempt to pull 1000 amps?
Depends on the car of course, but sure what do you say it is?

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