TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:44 am

donald wrote:
TimLee wrote:But where are getting the idea that starting an ICE with a weak battery could ever attempt to pull 1000 amps?
Depends on the car of course, but sure what do you say it is?
That is why I asked, I didn't have any good data on it.
I found the following in an online guide to resolving ICE starting problems.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/us1296.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A good starter will normally draw 60 to 150 amps with no load on it, and up to 200 amps or more while cranking the engine. The no load amp draw depends on the rating of the starter while the cranking amp draw depends on the displacement and compression of the engine. Always refer to the OEM specs for the exact amp values. Some "high torque" GM starters, for example, may have a no load draw of up to 250 amps. Toyota starters on four-cylinder engines typically draw 130 to 150 amps, and up to 175 amps on six-cylinder engines.
An unusually high current draw and low free turning speed or cranking speed typically indicates a shorted armature, grounded armature or field coils, or excessive friction within the starter itself (dirty, worn or binding bearings or bushings, a bent armature shaft or contact between the armature and field coils). The magnets in permanent magnet starters can sometimes break or separate from the housing and drag against the armature.
A starter that does not turn at all and draws a high current may have a ground in the terminal or field coils, or a frozen armature. On the other hand, the start may be fine but can't crank the engine because the engine is seized or hydrolocked. So before you condemn the starter, try turning the engine over by hand. Won't budge? Then the engine is probably locked up.
I think those values are more typical.
I think the highest currents would be the starter locked rotor current value, but I did not find a good source for those.
But probably under 300 amps.

I guess there is some possibility that the bad battery on the ICE might have developed a complete short. But that is pretty unlikely, they sometimes short individual cells, but not usually the overall battery.

Jump starting an ICE is an activity that does present risks. Are way too many injuries every year when people do it wrong.
But carefully following Ingineer's carefully outlined instructions using a LEAF in Ready mode there is a lot less risk than many other approaches.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:17 pm

TimLee wrote:I guess there is some possibility that the bad battery on the ICE might have developed a complete short. But that is pretty unlikely, they sometimes short individual cells, but not usually the overall battery.
Even if there are no shorted cells in the dead battery, the highest currents will occur if that battery has been discharged all the way down to 0V. In that case, it will look like a direct short initially. Based on that possibility, I would likely decline to start an ICE with no signs of life.

Otherwise, it the other vehicle is clicking or some such when you try to start it, then I have no qualms about starting an ICE from the LEAF with it in READY mode, following Ingineer's connection instructions.

That said, it is interesting that the LEAF battery does not have any information printed on it regarding its current capabilities. Donald may be correct: it may be quite low.
69800 wrote:I am now considering this Exide Edge AGM battery. $160 with a 4 year free replacement warrenty. Looks like and exact fit however most battery sites are not up to date with the leaf. Fits the Prius. Agm has a much lower self discharge that wet cells.

http://www.amazon.com/Exide-FP-AGM51R-S ... B00AAX3KXG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Exide Edge FP-AGM51R Flat Plate AGM Sealed Automotive Battery
by Exide
Thanks for that recommendation! That looks like a nice battery! I have never put 2-and-2 together to see that the LEAF battery is really just a 51R, which is the same thing we have in our Honda Civic Hybrid. It appears to be available for $152 shipped from a vendor other than Amazon.

I think I would have very little concern jump-starting other vehicles after replacing the OEM battery with this one.

I currently need a battery for another vehicle right now. I may consider one like this.

Thanks again!
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

voganni
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:43 pm
Delivery Date: 19 Jul 2013
Leaf Number: 412015

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:45 pm

I've had my 2013 S for almost a year and a half. Intermittent vampire drain issue the whole time. Disconnecting the battery will reset it for a while, up to 2 months sometimes, then it returns. Will drain at almost an amp. I've given up on it. Dealer replaced the battery once, no joy. They want to see it again but it's 80 miles one way. I purchased a DC clamp meter to look for the culprit. Appears to be in the brake servo/master cylinder area, as I see the same draw there with my clamp meter as I see at the battery. The car has to be on a battery tender at all times when not being driven. The last time I reset it the drain returned in 2 days so I just gave up.

The public charging infrastructure remains non-existent over here, not a single station added since I leased my Leaf. Constant range anxiety, and I can't take a trip anywhere conveniently. Probably gonna terminate my lease a few months early and look for a used Volt, or as a last resort, a Prius.

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:11 am

voganni wrote:I've had my 2013 S for almost a year and a half. Intermittent vampire drain issue the whole time. Disconnecting the battery will reset it for a while, up to 2 months sometimes, then it returns. Will drain at almost an amp. I've given up on it. Dealer replaced the battery once, no joy. They want to see it again but it's 80 miles one way. I purchased a DC clamp meter to look for the culprit. Appears to be in the brake servo/master cylinder area, as I see the same draw there with my clamp meter as I see at the battery. The car has to be on a battery tender at all times when not being driven. The last time I reset it the drain returned in 2 days so I just gave up.

The public charging infrastructure remains non-existent over here, not a single station added since I leased my Leaf. Constant range anxiety, and I can't take a trip anywhere conveniently. Probably gonna terminate my lease a few months early and look for a used Volt, or as a last resort, a Prius.
Kettle Falls, WA, correct?
100 miles north northwest of Spokane, about 15 miles south of Canadian border?
Is your closest dealer in Spokane?
Sorry about your neverending 12 volt battery problem.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

69800
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:21 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jan 2012
Leaf Number: 16583
Location: North Idaho

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:30 am

By the way I have read that If you buy an AGM battery online you need to buy from a real battery dealer or your replacement warranty may not work. Several amazon buyers have stated this. I will pay a little extra for my Exide AGM from a dealer and NOT use amazon for this.
2012 SV Delivered Jan 2012
DOM 10/11 Sequence 16583
58000 miles. Aug 21 2020
Leaf Spy Pro
New Battery Aug 21 2020

pointlomadave
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 9:04 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2013

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:47 am

I run one of these (link below) in my Subaru...a LI Ion 12V battery that weighs just 2lbs. Stuck the 10lb AGM battery (stock Leaf battery weighs 26lbs) in my Leaf the other day.

Now even though the Battery Pack tops off the 12V battery, and you'd think using a smaller 12V would lessen range as a result, maybe the loss of 16lbs off the car will "buy" some of that range back. That is my thought at least. When my 12V AGM goes out I'll but another Li Ion 12V for the Leaf. Here's the link to the Li Ion battery on Amazon for $99! I run a couple smaller versions of this one in both my Honda scooters for weight savings. :D

http://www.amazon.com/YTZ12S-Z12S-Lithi ... S4GNHA7YJA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

QueenBee
Posts: 1564
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:14 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 2062
Location: Portland

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:12 am

pointlomadave wrote:Now even though the Battery Pack tops off the 12V battery, and you'd think using a smaller 12V would lessen range as a result,
Why would you think that a lower capacity 12v battery would impact the range?

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5729
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:49 pm

pointlomadave wrote:I run one of these (link below) in my Subaru...a LI Ion 12V battery that weighs just 2lbs. Stuck the 10lb AGM battery (stock Leaf battery weighs 26lbs) in my Leaf the other day.

Now even though the Battery Pack tops off the 12V battery, and you'd think using a smaller 12V would lessen range as a result, maybe the loss of 16lbs off the car will "buy" some of that range back. That is my thought at least. When my 12V AGM goes out I'll but another Li Ion 12V for the Leaf. Here's the link to the Li Ion battery on Amazon for $99! I run a couple smaller versions of this one in both my Honda scooters for weight savings. :D

http://www.amazon.com/YTZ12S-Z12S-Lithi ... S4GNHA7YJA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wow, that is one HUGE battery

"Product Dimensions 150 x 87.1 x 92.9 inches"

Ok, so millimeters? Quite small. Between that, the weight, and the low-low price I'm thinking the capacity must be pretty small. Another reason to suspect small capacity is that nowhere do they mention the amp-hour rating, only CCA which is meaningless for LEAF application. Amp-hours is important because the car does draw power continuously. Regardless of the battery chemistry it will run flat if the dark current consumes the available capacity. This battery may serve well for motorcycle starting but unless you can find an amp-hour rating I'd worry that it might go dead in a matter of days in a parked LEAF. If you never go more than a couple of days without driving it may do fine.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

cwerdna
Posts: 10996
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:02 pm

Wasn't sure which thread to post in...

Count me in the dead 12 volt camp now. Let's just hope it doesn't happen to me every 2 weeks, or even more often. I've been reading about the supposedly crappy 12 volt charging algorithm for awhile.

My leased '13 Leaf SV w/both packages never had a dead 12 volt. But then again, I never monitored it nor did I ever put it on any charger or tender. I also didn't have Leaf Spy nor any OBD2 BT dongle until the last few weeks I had the car. The dongle I bought was http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009F4JHHO (says ELM 327 in orange on the top, ASIN B009F4JHHO) and I'm now using it w/my owned Leaf.

My owned '13 Leaf SV w/premium package (only) I bought used in mid-July 2015 and it's been fine, until today. More recently, I decided to sometimes on weekends charge up the 12 volt with my Tecmate Optimate 4 (http://tecmate.com/products/OptiMate4dp/) which I use to maintain and charge my Prius' tiny 12 volt. I think I last charged the 12 volt in my owned Leaf a week or two ago (max two weeks).

This morning, I couldn't get my Leaf into READY mode no matter how hard I tried. It'd basically go into ON or keep telling me to press the brake (which I was). I noticed Leaf Spy w/*uncalibrated* dongle was reading low 9.x volts! I turned off the car and measured using a multimeter across the terminals about mid-10 volts.

I have no idea if the dongle caused the drain or if there's something Leaf Spy does that can cause the car to stay in/get stuck in a state where it drains the 12 volt/prevents some module from going to sleep. I don't recall if Leaf Spy was running on my phone overnight. I normally don't have sufficient BT range between my garage and where my Android phone usually is.

I was already late to meet w/someone and had no 12 volt jump pack so I had to take my Prius. Sigh.... I was going to give the person I was meeting a Leaf demo.
voganni wrote: I purchased a DC clamp meter to look for the culprit
Which one did you get? Can anyone recommend an inexpensive one?

Some folks in other threads have mentioned data loggers. Anyone have an inexpensive one they can recommend?

Since I'm the second owner of the Leaf, I have no idea if this Leaf had trouble like this before nor whether its 12 volt is in bad shape. I did add distilled water when I first took possession as it looked a little low. I added a bit more today, as well.

Car's almost never plugged in overnight. It's usually only charged at work and w/the occasional use of free public L2. I last charged it on Saturday at free public L2 charging for maybe an hour. Sunday morning is when I got the unpleasant surprise.

I bought a jump starter pack and I guess I'll have to carry it around all the time, just in case. And, I'll be charging my 12 volt more often now.

It seems goofy that the car won't automatically start charging the 12 volt from the HV battery if it gets below a certain voltage.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GerryAZ
Gold Member
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:02 pm

Cwerdna,

If you leave Leaf Spy running on your phone and the ELM unit plugged in to the OBDII port, I think the app keeps asking for information so it keeps the Leaf's modules from going dormant. I have left my 2011 and 2015 parked for as long as 3 weeks and never had a problem except the one time I left the ELM unit plugged in and the app running on the phone which I left laying on the seat. I came back to a dead car and dead phone after only 6 days. I doubt that the ELM unit and app would drain the battery that low just overnight, but maybe the battery was not well charged due to a short traction battery charging session and limited driving. I carry a lithium booster pack (not much bigger than a laptop battery) and I used it a couple of times to start the V8 in my SUV at work when it's battery was failing.

Gerry
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

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