Ren116214
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:00 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2012
Leaf Number: 7050
Location: Vernon, CT

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:30 am

This just happened to my 2012 SV. I went out of the country for a week, and when I came home, I found that the 12V was dead. The car had about 70% charge and it wasn't plugged into the charger. This is the first and only time this has happened. I've left the car alone for a week or more previously, with no ill effects.
I thought that the big battery will charge the 12V every so often, indicated by one blue light on the dash, but to be honest, I've never caught it actually doing that.
I put the 12V on a trickle charger overnight and it's been fine since. That was 3 days ago. But I'm wondering what the heck happened. :?:
2012 LEAF SL Super Black
Ordered 10/1/11; delivered 1/11/12 (Harte Nissan, Hartford, CT)
Avg. 4.5 Miles/kwh Wild LEAFs: 5 (1 White, 1 Blue, 3 Black) Wild Volts: 1 Black Wild Teslas: 2 (Red)

pyrotech
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:42 am
Delivery Date: 14 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 411102
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:50 am

I need to join the dead battery club. 3 times last week. Each time I had 60% - 40% left in my traction battery, so I did not plug in. Today I go for a ride to the dealer. I'll report back tonight.
2013 Leaf SV
Pacific Power's Blue Sky program
Walkin' the Walk

joerivct
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:03 am
Delivery Date: 24 Feb 2014
Leaf Number: 424843
Location: Riverside CT

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:22 am

According to the Service Manual, the "dark current" should be 50 ma or less (May be for late 2013 models). This means that (if my math is right) a fresh 24 AHr battery should last for 20 days; cut that in half and let's say 10 days. If your battery is older, it will not hold as much charge as a new battery and will last less. I personally would not leave the car without a trickle charger for more than 5 days.

When the car is not used for a long period, this happens:

"When Vehicle is Not Used for A Long Time, VCM (Vehicle control module) measures the time of no operation using its internal timer. If the time of no operation reaches 24 hours, VCM performs automatic charge for 4 minutes.
VCM resets the no operation status continuous time when the vehicle satisfies one of the following conditions.
• READY continues for more than 4 minutes.
• Normal charge continues for more than 4 minutes.
• Quick charge continues for more than 4 minutes.
• Climate Ctrl. Timer or remote climate control continues for more than 4 minutes.
• Discharge current of 12 V battery is 1.5 A or more.
• During automatic 12V battery charge, the charging status indicator blinks.
• The automatic 12V battery charge control does not start within approximately one hour when the power
switch is turned ON/OFF."

So there is some charging going on but does not look like a lot.

Bottom line: Leave the car for more than 5 days, use a trickle charger or disconnect the battery. IMHO the Leaf needs a good deep-cycle battery.
2013 S, QC package, DEC mfg

User avatar
Stanton
Forum Supporter
Posts: 2151
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:56 am
Delivery Date: 01 Sep 2011
Leaf Number: 7458
Location: Plano, TX
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:31 am

joerivct wrote:
Bottom line: Leave the car for more than 5 days, use a trickle charger or disconnect the battery. IMHO the Leaf needs a good deep-cycle battery.
Or swap that lead-acid 12v out for a Lithium 12v! I haven't had a single problem or dead 12v battery and I leave my car at the airport for days at a time. Search for my name+12v for details or read my blog post at http://stanton.myevblog.com/2012/01/16/ ... -lead-out/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
3G modem upgrade
L2 EVSE Upgrade
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

joerivct
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:03 am
Delivery Date: 24 Feb 2014
Leaf Number: 424843
Location: Riverside CT

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:37 pm

I saw your battery post in some other thread - elegant but very expensive solution. I've been looking at these li ion batteries:

http://antigravitybatteries.com/oem-case-clymb/

The weight savings is incredible - biggest battery weighs 5 pounds!
2013 S, QC package, DEC mfg

User avatar
Stanton
Forum Supporter
Posts: 2151
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:56 am
Delivery Date: 01 Sep 2011
Leaf Number: 7458
Location: Plano, TX
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:20 am

joerivct wrote:I saw your battery post in some other thread - elegant but very expensive solution. I've been looking at these li ion batteries:

http://antigravitybatteries.com/oem-case-clymb/

The weight savings is incredible - biggest battery weighs 5 pounds!
Took a quick look at the website, and equivalent AHr capacity (around 22 AHr) to what I have installed is definitely cheaper, BUT--be careful what you're getting. I don't see where it mentions anything about a BMS, either for cell-balancing (critical to long life) or voltage limiting (although the Leaf shouldn't apply > 14.4 Vdc). I also find it interesting the equivalent battery capacity size/package weighs much less than mine (about half in fact): could it be the extra electronics/circuitry or something in the battery chemistry?
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
3G modem upgrade
L2 EVSE Upgrade
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

pyrotech
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:42 am
Delivery Date: 14 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 411102
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:04 am

Update: After driving 30 miles to the dealer, they report that my 12v battery is "okay" but was low on charge (after driving 30 mi?). They said if it goes dead again, they will be glad to test it again. I'm not thrilled with that answer, any advise out there as to how I should proceed?
I talked with the Service Manager and explained that I didn't want to pay $34K for a new car and not be able to start it without a jump every morning, and he said that seemed reasonable, but he needs it to fail the tests on Nissan's machine in order to do a warranty replacement.
I sense some finger pointing to what seems maybe a rock and a hard place for me.
2013 Leaf SV
Pacific Power's Blue Sky program
Walkin' the Walk

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5400
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:36 am

pyrotech wrote:Update: After driving 30 miles to the dealer, they report that my 12v battery is "okay" but was low on charge (after driving 30 mi?). They said if it goes dead again, they will be glad to test it again. I'm not thrilled with that answer, any advise out there as to how I should proceed?
I talked with the Service Manager and explained that I didn't want to pay $34K for a new car and not be able to start it without a jump every morning, and he said that seemed reasonable, but he needs it to fail the tests on Nissan's machine in order to do a warranty replacement.
I sense some finger pointing to what seems maybe a rock and a hard place for me.
They should have done a load test. If they claim to have done so, you can get a 2nd opinion with a free load test at Autozone, I believe.

Pushing a weak 12V battery over the edge is pretty simple.

Personally I'd apply the Nubo value-of-time test. My time is worth money. And my "rates" for arm-twisting a recalcitrant dealership service department are even higher. You might be happier just replacing the battery on your own and be done with it. I replaced mine with a deep-cycle battery for peace of mind, and it wasn't even failing.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:04 pm

pyrotech wrote:Update: After driving 30 miles to the dealer, they report that my 12v battery is "okay" but was low on charge (after driving 30 mi?).
That's the problem with the LEAF 12V charging system. It does not fully charge the battery. It charges at 14.4V for only a few minutes and then drops down to 13.1V, which does not charge, but simply maintains the charge level. So the LEAF 12V battery sits around half-charged much of the time. That leads to sulfation (the hardening of lead-sulfate) which reduces capacity. Eventually, you have a useless battery.

To try to prevent permanent damage from sulfation, I charge my LEAF 12V battery to full every couple of weeks using a battery maintainer I have.

It seems the designers of the charging system assumed that since it takes almost no energy to start the LEAF, that there is no need to replace more than a small amount of charge. What they have missed is how much charge is lost when the LEAF is OFF.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

joerivct
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:03 am
Delivery Date: 24 Feb 2014
Leaf Number: 424843
Location: Riverside CT

Re: 2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:07 pm

Stanton wrote:
joerivct wrote:I saw your battery post in some other thread - elegant but very expensive solution. I've been looking at these li ion batteries:

http://antigravitybatteries.com/oem-case-clymb/

The weight savings is incredible - biggest battery weighs 5 pounds!
Took a quick look at the website, and equivalent AHr capacity (around 22 AHr) to what I have installed is definitely cheaper, BUT--be careful what you're getting. I don't see where it mentions anything about a BMS, either for cell-balancing (critical to long life) or voltage limiting (although the Leaf shouldn't apply > 14.4 Vdc). I also find it interesting the equivalent battery capacity size/package weighs much less than mine (about half in fact): could it be the extra electronics/circuitry or something in the battery chemistry?
All good questions - I plan to call them to get some answers, especially re BMS.
2013 S, QC package, DEC mfg

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