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Stanton
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Re: T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:35 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:24 pm
EVs are perfect candidates for Lithium starter batteries since they almost universally have "phantom drain" from telematics and Lithium batteries don't care if their charge levels fall below 50% (unlike lead-acid).
They do care very much, however, if their SOC falls below 10%. That's why I don't recommend them: an expensive lithium battery can get killed dead just like a cheap SLA battery, and then cost several times as much to replace. Lithium can be a good solution for people who are actively involved in maintaining/monitoring their cars, but not so much for those who want to just drive the things.
Sorry, but I don't think it's reasonable for a starter battery to fall below 10% with even the Leaf's charging algorithm. A common failure point for lead-acid batteries is 50% SOC, which is a far cry from 10% (which I don't even dive my main battery down to).
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
Lithium Pros 12v LiFePO4 battery w/Antigravity Battery Tracker
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LeftieBiker
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Re: T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:39 am

You seem to believe that the lowest a lithium battery would be drained would be 50%, because that's where many lead-acid starter batteries are when diagnosed. I believe that this is because at that point the car often won't start, and that the bad charging algorithms would happily drain a lithium battery right down to a similar SOC at which the voltage drops off - like 2%.
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Lothsahn
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Re: T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:38 am

Stanton wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:49 am
Levenkay wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:42 am
Transformers only work for AC power, not DC. A legitimate disappointment about the LEAF's 12V system is its use of a lead-acid battery. Now if only Nissan could discover some other battery technology... Nah, that's just a pipe dream.
At the risk of beating a dead horse...it's very easy to replace the 12v lead-acid with a 12v Lithium battery. I have had mine (see sig) for over 5 years now with no issues (and I have never had a 12v battery last that long in Texas)...and there are more choices now than when I bought mine. Search for my name and the 12v Lithium thread I started years ago. EVs are perfect candidates for Lithium starter batteries since they almost universally have "phantom drain" from telematics and Lithium batteries don't care if their charge levels fall below 50% (unlike lead-acid).
Which one are you using? I talked to one manufacturer, and the 12V lithium battery was $700 and they had concerns that due to the slightly high charge voltage and known issues with the Leaf Charging algorithm, that the battery might not charge until it hit the cutoff voltage.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
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Stanton
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Re: T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:28 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:38 am
Stanton wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:49 am
At the risk of beating a dead horse...it's very easy to replace the 12v lead-acid with a 12v Lithium battery. I have had mine (see sig) for over 5 years now with no issues (and I have never had a 12v battery last that long in Texas)...and there are more choices now than when I bought mine. Search for my name and the 12v Lithium thread I started years ago. EVs are perfect candidates for Lithium starter batteries since they almost universally have "phantom drain" from telematics and Lithium batteries don't care if their charge levels fall below 50% (unlike lead-acid).
Which one are you using? I talked to one manufacturer, and the 12V lithium battery was $700 and they had concerns that due to the slightly high charge voltage and known issues with the Leaf Charging algorithm, that the battery might not charge until it hit the cutoff voltage.
I use the Lithium Pros C925, but there are several other good (e.g. BMS/voltage protection/etc) Lithium 12v batteries on the market now as well (and they don't cost $700). The charging algorithm and battery specs are compatible (I'm an EE), but I suggest you visit the thread I started years ago if you want more information. Did you read the part about I've had one of these in my Leaf for over 5 years now?
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
Lithium Pros 12v LiFePO4 battery w/Antigravity Battery Tracker
FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

Lothsahn
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Re: T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:22 am

Stanton wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:28 am
I use the Lithium Pros C925, but there are several other good (e.g. BMS/voltage protection/etc) Lithium 12v batteries on the market now as well (and they don't cost $700). The charging algorithm and battery specs are compatible (I'm an EE), but I suggest you visit the thread I started years ago if you want more information. Did you read the part about I've had one of these in my Leaf for over 5 years now?
I did read the thread you posted. The Lithium Pros C925 is an $800 battery and out of stock... Has it gone up in price or is there a cheaper place to buy it than their website?
Stanton wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:28 am
The charging algorithm and battery specs are compatible (I'm an EE), but I suggest you visit the thread I started years ago if you want more information. Did you read the part about I've had one of these in my Leaf for over 5 years now?
Yes, that's why I asked which one you used. I wasn't challenging that you found a product that worked--I was just saying when I looked, I only found very expensive solutions and some had compatibility issues with the Leaf.

Unfortunately, I just replaced my 12V battery ~6 months ago, but I used an Optima Yellow top and haven't had any problems since.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

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Stanton
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Re: T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:52 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:22 am
Stanton wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:28 am
I use the Lithium Pros C925, but there are several other good (e.g. BMS/voltage protection/etc) Lithium 12v batteries on the market now as well (and they don't cost $700). The charging algorithm and battery specs are compatible (I'm an EE), but I suggest you visit the thread I started years ago if you want more information. Did you read the part about I've had one of these in my Leaf for over 5 years now?
I did read the thread you posted. The Lithium Pros C925 is an $800 battery and out of stock... Has it gone up in price or is there a cheaper place to buy it than their website?

Unfortunately, I just replaced my 12V battery ~6 months ago, but I used an Optima Yellow top and haven't had any problems since.
I bought my battery direct from Lithium Pros (and didn't pay near that much), but am not aware of other distributors (they actually design/manufacture their batteries in TN). No matter, there are other/cheaper options (like the Antigravity Lithium starter batteries)...and they don't have to fit the 51R profile or supply more than ~20AHr to work in a Leaf.
12v Lithium starter batteries are like insurance: better to have it and not need it...than to need it and not have it. I've never had a "dead battery" or any funky brake/system issues since I went Lithium. It's always easy to go with a cheaper option to get you "down the road"...but you get what you pay for.
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
Lithium Pros 12v LiFePO4 battery w/Antigravity Battery Tracker
FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

Lothsahn
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Re: T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:51 am

Stanton wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:52 am
Lothsahn wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:22 am
Stanton wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:28 am
I use the Lithium Pros C925, but there are several other good (e.g. BMS/voltage protection/etc) Lithium 12v batteries on the market now as well (and they don't cost $700). The charging algorithm and battery specs are compatible (I'm an EE), but I suggest you visit the thread I started years ago if you want more information. Did you read the part about I've had one of these in my Leaf for over 5 years now?
I did read the thread you posted. The Lithium Pros C925 is an $800 battery and out of stock... Has it gone up in price or is there a cheaper place to buy it than their website?

Unfortunately, I just replaced my 12V battery ~6 months ago, but I used an Optima Yellow top and haven't had any problems since.
I bought my battery direct from Lithium Pros (and didn't pay near that much), but am not aware of other distributors (they actually design/manufacture their batteries in TN). No matter, there are other/cheaper options (like the Antigravity Lithium starter batteries)...and they don't have to fit the 51R profile or supply more than ~20AHr to work in a Leaf.
12v Lithium starter batteries are like insurance: better to have it and not need it...than to need it and not have it. I've never had a "dead battery" or any funky brake/system issues since I went Lithium. It's always easy to go with a cheaper option to get you "down the road"...but you get what you pay for.
FYI - Antigravity was one of the vendors I looked at. They said that I would need to special order a battery without the restart feature, or it might have compatibility issues given the Leaf's charging profile. The 51R is $650, and at the time, I wasn't aware that you could use a different size battery, so I didn't investigate it.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

LeftieBiker
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Re: T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:28 am

Can Stanton give me a financial or reliability reason to use one of these expensive lithium batteries, instead of a $150-$200 AGM 51R? I still can't see one.
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2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

gncndad
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Re: T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:48 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:28 am
Can Stanton give me a financial or reliability reason to use one of these expensive lithium batteries, instead of a $150-$200 AGM 51R? I still can't see one.
I'm interested, as well. While I only have 17 months on my $150 Bosch AGM 51R, I haven't had any issues. I totally agree with "proactive" 12V battery replacement, but at $150/ea, I could replace with the AGM 3 more times and still be $$$ ahead of the cost of a lithium battery.

I'm also living in Stanton's state of TX...high heat...
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Stanton
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Re: T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:22 pm

With all respect, I'm not going to generate a biz case on "why you should go 12v Lithium". I'm sure there's plenty of anecdotal info on the 'net.
If you want to replace your failed lead-acid battery every couple of years (depending on climate), then be my guest; if you want to put something in there that may very well last the life of your car (and mine is approaching 10 years), then do it.
If these things were a bit closer in price, we wouldn't even be having this discussion...but I'm not here to defend the cost (I just don't want to get stuck on the road).
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
Lithium Pros 12v LiFePO4 battery w/Antigravity Battery Tracker
FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

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