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Re: RIP, 11th bar

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:54 pm
by LeftieBiker
A good post for an existing topic. Mods, please merge with the 2013 bar loss topic.

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:36 am
by cwerdna
Please don't open new threads for each capacity bar loss. MNL would get out of hand if everyone did that. We already have a '13 to '14 capacity bar loss thread at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18269. My own loss is at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 15#p511915.

Also, some of the (well, at least one) moderators have complained about people unnecessarily starting new threads.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 82#p149582
viewtopic.php?p=52644#p52644
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 64#p517564

FWIW, my stats are now:
AHr: 55.16
SOH: 84.35% (tends to vary between 83.xx and 85.xx now)
Hx: 79.58%
odo: 57,195 miles
0 QCs (this car doesn't have a CHAdeMO inlet)
3690 L1/L2s
Silverfish wrote:I hardly knew ye. But I knew it was basically a 10-bar Leaf when I bought it about 2 months ago.

Stats, for the curious:

2013 Leaf SV (built in 2/2013, so probably no lizard battery)
...
I hope the downward trend doesn't continue quite so quickly. But it is what it is.
Definitely not lizard battery, which didn't begin until model year '15. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 06#p513306.

The 4/2013 and later built '13 Leafs and presumably all '14 model year Leafs seem to have a better chemistry, but not as good as the "lizard" battery.

If the downward trend continues as quickly and you don't live in a hot climate (I have no idea where you're at), you were a victim of a reset.

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:35 am
by Silverfish
cwerdna wrote:Please don't open new threads for each capacity bar loss. MNL would get out of hand if everyone did that. We already have a '13 to '14 capacity bar loss thread at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18269. My own loss is at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 15#p511915.

Also, some of the (well, at least one) moderators have complained about people unnecessarily starting new threads.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 82#p149582
viewtopic.php?p=52644#p52644
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 64#p517564
Ah, sorry. I did a quick Google search and didn't find an existing topic. It's fine with me to merge this into whatever existing topic the mods choose. Or I can just delete it, if I can delete topics I opened.
cwerdna wrote: Definitely not lizard battery, which didn't begin until model year '15. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 06#p513306.

The 4/2013 and later built '13 Leafs and presumably all '14 model year Leafs seem to have a better chemistry, but not as good as the "lizard" battery.

If the downward trend continues as quickly and you don't live in a hot climate (I have no idea where you're at), you were a victim of a reset.
Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:27 pm
by LeftieBiker
Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.
There are several generations of Leaf battery, most of which I have given nicknames to distinguish them from each other. The first, terrible pack made from 2011 through March of 2013, is the "Canary" pack because it is not resilient or long-lived except in optimum (chilly) conditions. The pack introduced in April of 2013 I nicknamed the "Wolf" pack, because it is tough and resilient in all conditions except sustained high heat. The "Lizard" pack you know about. It is somewhat better in extreme heat, but still not fantastic. Then in 2016 Nissan took two steps backwards with the "Lettuce" pack, with more initial capacity but such terrible degradation that it can easily fall below a Wolf pack in range after two years or less. They have recently introduced a firmware patch that will supposedly fix the issue, but I remain skeptical. The 40kwh pack in the 2018 Leaf seems, from very preliminary data, (unfortunately) to be another version of the Lettuce pack as far as durability of capacity goes...

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:12 pm
by cwerdna
No. Please don’t delete.
Silverfish wrote: Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.
No, lizard pack was NOT put into service in 2013. It appeared in model year ’15 Leafs, that began production sometime in mid-2014. Please see earlier links.

We had no idea that 4/2013+ and later Leafs but before "lizard" were apparently better. It was only years after that fact that it seemed like it was true. Nissan has never formally announced or acknowledged this revision that Leftie coined the term "Wolf" pack for.

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:55 pm
by SageBrush
LeftieBiker wrote:
Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.
There are several generations of Leaf battery, most of which I have given nicknames to distinguish them from each other. The first, terrible pack made from 2011 through March of 2013, is the "Canary" pack because it is not resilient or long-lived except in optimum (chilly) conditions. The pack introduced in April of 2013 the "Wolf" pack because it is tough and resilient in all conditions except sustained high heat. The "Lizard" pack you know about. It is somewhat better in extreme heat, but still not fantastic. Then in 2016 Nissan took two steps backwards with the "Lettuce" pack, with more initial capacity but such terrible degradation that it can easily fall below a Wolf pack in range after two years or less. The 40kwh pack in the 2018 Leaf seems, unfortunately, to be another version of the Lettuce pack as far as durability of capacity goes...
The 40 kWh pack is too early to tell, although I would not recommend anybody gamble on it unless the car is severely discounted.
As for the 30 kWh packs ... I am not sure. The New Zealand data posted by dwl has me edging towards the notion that they may actually be degrading at the rates seen in 24 kWh packs, as shown by the data correction after the software update.

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:57 pm
by WetEV
LeftieBiker wrote:Then in 2016 Nissan took two steps backwards with the "Lettuce" pack, with more initial capacity but such terrible degradation that it can easily fall below a Wolf pack in range after two years or less.
Based on a firmware error in reporting capacity. Dyno testing shows that these batteries are similar to the "Lizard" packs, that reported capacity more closely matches the independently measured capacity after firmware updated.

Image

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606&start=1360#p533030

https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-ni ... reporting/

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:48 pm
by LeftieBiker
I'm taking this "firmware update" with a big grain of salt. Unless people generally start reporting an increase in actual range (not SOH) that doesn't come from running the cells lower than the 24kwh pack does, I'm going to keep thinking that is Nissan playing games with the BMS that don't primarily consist of fixing a simple "error" in programming. I guess we'll see, but I'll remember to include this caveat in the future.

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:34 pm
by alozzy
@WetEV That's a very well written report and their methodology seems solid too. Pretty clear that the software update is legit, dealing only with an under reporting of SoH and the related GOM range estimates. Based on their findings, it's also clear that the 30 kWh packs are degrading in a very similar fashion to 24 kWh packs. Nice to have an independent analysis, rather than just taking Nissan's word for it.

Thanks for sharing this, as I may consider a 30 kWh LEAF as a used car buy in a few years and it's good to know that, if I can get another PNW LEAF, I'll have a good chance of getting one with a healthy pack.

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:44 pm
by LeftieBiker
Hopefully the almost 1% loss of SOH per month I'm seeing, despite my cooled garage, is just another BMS "error."