essaunders
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 7:20 am
Delivery Date: 20 Jan 2012
Location: southern NH

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:18 am

alembic42 wrote:Whelp,
Didn't a bunch of you guys buy yours new for over $30k?
I bought mine in Jan 2012 for full MSRP : about $38000 before tax credits etc., so with tax and optimistic rounding, $30k.

I knew exactly what I was getting. It certainly beat spending about $10k to convert a car to get less capability.

Is it annoying Nissan cut 6k from the MSRP the next year? yep.

Am I going to get a new battery before my 5 years are up? no - I'm still at 12 bars


I always figured this car was like a 386 computer. it was expensive as hell and kind of impressive when purchased new, but a few years in you can't give it away - but it was certainly useful when you had it.


edited to add: I have an ELM device but don't use it. I pre-plan any day with more than 40 miles of driving. But that 40 miles is exactly the same distance I set as my worst-case unplanned day back in 2010 when I reserved the car.

Reddy
Posts: 1544
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:09 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 006828
Location: Pasco, WA

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:49 am

alembic42 wrote:....But I really appreciate the people who actually had helpful things to offer. Not sure what motivates you to post replies to strangers on boards like this. I'm totally new to posting stuff on internet boards. Don't know how that whole system works or why. But hey thanks for the LeafSpy suggestion, as well as the helpful discussion; it does help.
Welcome back! Feel free to provide your experiences, even if they aren't rosy and positive about Nissan or EVs in general. This board has been running for over six years with some of the smartest people on the planet (I'm definitely not one of them). Spend some time perusing some of the older threads, the information is truly amazing. Early on there was a huge amount of angst over the "100 mi" marketing. There's a thread dedicated to the first 100 drivers to ACTUALLY achieve 100 mi in one drive (I'm #23).
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f ... le#p154572
So, if you've received some short, less than useful, or even downright derogatory replies, just remember that many of these people have seen it all before from others as they have begun their electric journey.
Reddy
2011 SL; 9 bar, 45.80 AHr; 45,000 mi; rcv'd Aug 18, 2011
Long: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... al#p226115"
Cold: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p243033"

User avatar
keydiver
Posts: 1080
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:04 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 16484
Location: Hobe Sound, Florida
Contact: Website

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:41 am

alembic42 wrote: And as for the people who told me to do shit that adds an extra hour to my daily commute, like maybe taking the slow roads to work... just look man i'm living in the real world here but thanks for contributing from so far away.
You should at least give it a try if possible. As others have said, the drive on secondary roads can be much less stressful, and increases the Leaf range significantly. It may not add as much time to your commute as you imagine.
alembic42 wrote: Didn't a bunch of you guys buy yours new for over $30k?
If I recall, my 2012 SL came to about $42,000 with taxes, tags, and transfer fees, before the $7500 tax credit. Am I pissed that the car is now only worth $7,000? YES, of course! I have never had a car devaluate so badly, but what can I do about it. I don't see how you paid so much for your 2012, when I looked at trading mine 2 years ago for a Tesla model S it was only worth $10,000, so I think you WAY overpaid.
The other unfortunate thing is that you live so far north that your battery will never degrade enough to qualify for a new battery (~34% loss before 5 years/60,000 miles), so your situation is only going to get worse. As others have suggested, it may be best to just bail out now and get a car that works for your commute in the winter.
2012 Glacier Pearl SL - Delivered December 8, 2011
10kW Solar PV for recharging!
2006 Prius with Hymotion 5kWh PHEV upgrade
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geos56us
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:40 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Feb 2013
Leaf Number: 008552

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:02 pm

My 2011 SL has lost 3 capacity bars. I was hoping it would lose the 4th bar by November 11th, its 5 year in-service anniversary, so I could get a replacement battery. Unfortunately, that did not happen. I can usually go about 40 miles before the low battery warning comes on ...

So here's my story. I bought my Leaf in 2013 with 4100 miles. Nearly 4 years later I now have just under 15,000 miles, so I obviously don't drive it much. I paid $17,900 for the car back in 2013, which wasn't too bad at the time for an SL with really low miles. It has been totally trouble-free, literally only requiring new wiper blades. But I sure wish I knew how limited of a car this would become in relatively few miles. Fortunately, I still have my other 2 ICE cars which I still drive and enjoy ('88 Mazda RX7 convertible and '94 Lexus SC400). But my plan is to move on and eventually get rid of all 3 cars and get one car to do it all. I definitely would not buy an all-electric car again --- even one with a 200 mile range. If I don't buy a Volt (which I like, but find cramped inside compared to the Leaf), I'm sure I will buy an ICE car. Since I work from home these days, I drive very little and the cost of fuel has little impact on me (although I do really like the low environmental impact of the Leaf). But I want to take road trips on occasion, which I can't do in the Leaf and my other cars are getting up there in mileage (The Lexus, which I recently put 500 miles on during a trip, has nearly 260K miles). I told my brother-in-law that I would just give him the Leaf, as it's worth almost nothing now, but he's not sure if he wants to invest the $5500.00 in a new battery and still have a limited range vehicle. Sure wish I knew then what I know now about these cars. I would have a lot more money in my pocket, having not bought one in the first place! Apparently many people feel the same way as I do.

jbs2015
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:22 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:56 am

A lot of posts in this thread beat up on alembic42 and he certainly failed to do due diligence before purchasing his Leaf but he has my sympathy. His mistake was one that any of us could have made on a bad day. Even allowing for salesman's exaggerations the fact that range deteriorates in cold weather as badly as it does is something that our previous experience with gasoline cars completely fails to prepare us to even suspect. Gasoline cars lose range in cold weather too but unless you're actually measuring carefully, it's not too noticeable and with 300+ mile ranges and gas stations everywhere it's no big deal anyway. But with EVs like the Leaf it's a _very big deal__.

Like alembic42, I tpp failed to do enough due diligence. I bought my Leaf new at the end of February, 2015 but almost immediately went on a long vacation and didn't return until the beginning of April so that I returned to early Spring temperatures. So all was just ducky and innocent I had no clue what was going to happen on the first really cold day the following December when I left work on a frigid (22 F) day to pick up a friend at an airport a "mere" 25 miles away. Fortunately I made it but just barely. It was a wakeup call. So I then began paying careful attention to my Leaf's cold weather performance and found that its nominal 84 mile range was maybe 45 miles during the worst of Winter.

Same thing as happened to alembic82 -- completely blindsided by the discovery that not only was the range less in Winter, it was a FULL BINARY ORDER OF MAGNITUDE less. But I was not betrayed the way he was because lucky me my commute is only 20 miles round trip and none of it at freeway speeds. So even in Winter, my Leaf serves me well and the impact of Winter for me is only that I have to plug in more often. (Other than the fact that Winter mostly sucks). And even with Winter-halved range my Leaf is still more economical than any gas alternative other than a mo-ped or tiny motorcycle. So even after my loss of innocence, I don't feel betrayed by my Leaf. I'm still pretty happy with it (albeit a bit less so than before I knew).

The primary purpose of a car is to get you and your groceries from point A to point B, in reasonable safety and comfort.

So if your EV goes turtle at point A and a half it has failed to discharge its fundamental purpose. The buyer needs to have an accurate idea of expected range in realistic, not optimal circumstances (duh) so that he/she doesn't go turtle and A and an half. So where does info come from? One possibility is from the dealer or salesman but this thread has already laughed that idea out of court. Another is forums such as this but how does the dear buyer even know to search out and consult these forums when nothing in his/her experience with the last 1,2,3,4 or 5 car purchases tipped him/her off that doing this sort of thing was not merely wise but essential?

My point is that many a buyer besides alebmic42 and I are going to walk into this same nasty trap. Is this OK and if not, what's to be done about it?

One school of thought is laissez-faire and caveat emptor and buyer beware. Pro: it's all about free markets and minimal regulation (yay!!!) but Con: people are going to continue to get screwed and electric cars are going to get a bad reputation. This will harm the environment and harm the economy because global warming unchecked will be very very expensive economically.

Another idea is that manufacturers should show enlightened self=interest and tell the exact truth about expected range. Tesla seems to do this very thing by providing a simple calculator of expected range as a function of speed, temperature, and tire size (https://www.tesla.com/models at the bottom of the page). I say "seems to" beause I have no idea of the calculated values are correct (but see http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news ... /index.htm). Nissan, on the other hand, (I just got back from the NissanUSA web site) is still suggesting an expected range of 80-85 miles or more with a testimonial hint that cooler weather will !increase! range. The Chevy Bolt site is no better. I have no idea how forthcoming all the rest are and don't have the stomach to look. Enlightment here is wanting.

This leaves nothing left but the govermment (and if you don't like this idea, see [a] and above). The EPA MPGE disclosure is the obvious hook to hang this on. The range/MPGE value could easily be stated for several temperatures, e.g., 10 degrees F, 40, 70, and 100. Or at the very least a "range is reduced by cold temperatures -- see http://www.epa.gov/EV/temperature" for the essential facts.

My 2 cents worth. If anyone has better ideas I'd love to hear them.

alembic42
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:07 am
Delivery Date: 14 Feb 2015
Leaf Number: 018686

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:06 pm

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Last edited by alembic42 on Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

alembic42
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:07 am
Delivery Date: 14 Feb 2015
Leaf Number: 018686

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:27 pm

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Last edited by alembic42 on Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13016
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:05 am

I have heard of some AA trucks being equipped with L-2 generators, but I doubt you'd find any in your area - or me in mine. Basically, you have to maximize range from the beginning of each trip, not just when you see that gap opening up, between where you can go and where you have to get. You also have to analyze each new trip, and if you can't make it with 5 miles to spare, don't take it...
Last edited by LeftieBiker on Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 9682
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:52 am

alembic42 wrote:Here in western PA, i don't think we have all brands of electric vehicles to choose from. But there are a few: Ford, Tesla, what else?
You can see some EVs mixed in with PHEVs at http://insideevs.com/compare-plug-ins/ (via Compare EVs link at top of page).

You can see US BEVs under Battery Electric sales of http://www.hybridcars.com/november-2016-dashboard/. Yes, some are CA compliance cars only or only available in CARB states or just small sets of states.
alembic42 wrote: Do the other brands of electric vehicles have the same range problem? Do they go as far as they claim to go under realistic conditions, unlike the Leaf? Or do they have the same problem?
The US EPA test is about the only standardized controlled test that I know of that's useful that's been done most/all the BEVs sold in the US. There are the crazy inflated Japanese and European (NEDC) cycles.

The test results are only as good as what they test and on a new battery. I already pointed to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 86#p474086. I also re-stumbled across http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2433. Unfortunately, many of the images are broken. :( If I'm reading it (page 2 of FOI-BNSXV0000LLA.pdf) correctly, on the tests Nissan conducted that are supposed to be compliant w/the required procedures, they achieved 111.7 miles on the UDDS test (aka LA4 city test https://www.epa.gov/vehicle-and-fuel-em ... -schedules) and 94.9 miles on the "highway" test in D vs. 113.7 and 97.1 in Eco. (Remember, the average speed on the highway tests is only 48.3 or 48.4 mph per Test Details tab of https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml and note the lab temps of 68 to 86 F in the 2 highway cycles.)

They're all going to suffer from the same issue although ones w/real battery thermal management if the battery is kept warm enough via "shore power" in cold temps, should be better off.
alembic42 wrote: Someone on this thread mentioned that his or her RAV4 EV had no problem achieving the miles stated - this is a compliance car not available in PA. But its batteries are made by Tesla, right? Does anyone know how this shakes out? Like, you know, for the next car I buy which is not going to be any kind of a Nissan?
Rav4 EV is EPA rated at 103 miles (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do? ... s&id=33308). I believe http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=541#p541 "Toyota's "official" estimated range of 92 miles at 80% charge, and 113 miles at 100% charge," is correct. I'm having trouble finding other threads about the Rav4 EV getting bitten by the stupid 80%/100% averaging rule.

You can read about Tony's 130 mile Rav4 EV drive at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 69#p240769 and the posts that follow.

Unfortunately, the Rav4 EV is an unreliable, discontinued Tesla-powered CA compliance car. It does have a lot more range than a 24 kwh Leaf, because it has a ~41 kwh battery!

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

alembic42
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:07 am
Delivery Date: 14 Feb 2015
Leaf Number: 018686

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:34 am

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Last edited by alembic42 on Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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