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Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:21 pm
by cwerdna
alembic42 wrote: I saw a 2014 few BMW i3 cars with a range extenders listed for $20,000 used... (maybe it'll come down soon?) That car might be a little geeky but what the hell i have a Leaf now!
You do not want an i3 REx, unless you want to risk having a new hobby (of having to visit the "spa" (dealer) often) or plunking down lots of $ after the warranty has expired. It is frankly, a POS from a reliability point of view. I would never recommend that vehicle to anyone even if you like the styling. The pure BEV version seems more reliable.

See my posts at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic ... 118#p22118 and replies there. I'm not the only one to notice this (e.g. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 04#p421704). Join https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/?fref=nf and watch the problem reports roll out, ignoring any flat tire issues or minor probs. You'll see what I mean.

You're better off buying a used Gen 1 Volt. Gen 2 Volt (model year 2016+) unfortunately has a TERRIBLE reliability rating in Consumer Reports, so far.
alembic42 wrote: Also, just one more note, I have now discovered that RAIN also causes my range to go down. I suppose snow will be even worse? Last couple years it wasn't good but I didn't have LeafSpy.
Of course rain will reduce range. There's energy wasted by tires collecting water and throwing it up in the air.

Yes, snow should also increase rolling friction and there's temporary battery capacity reduction in the cold. You should pre-heat the car on "shore power" (while connected to EVSE) to heat the car from "shore power" instead of the battery.

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:18 am
by alembic42
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Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:46 am
by jjeff
alembic42 wrote:thanks for the advice on the other brands of cars guys. i guess i'll muddle through, with leafspy it has been better since i have options, for now, for the day i don't charge at work. seems that any electric car worth having is a few years off still, and i still have years of payments left on this nissan, so i guess it's more of the same for a while for me. Which isn't all bad, i can say that after driving an electric car I do not wish to return to driving a gas car. I actually travel enough to have experience with a variety of cars, and no gas car I've driven lately is as nice as my little geeky leaf. I guess you can't have everything. For now.

here's a question about leafspy:
When I charge to 80%, LeafSpy shows my SoC as right about 80%. Within a few tenths of a percent.
When I charge to 100%, LeafSpy shows my SoC as somewhere between 87% and 91%, or so.

Why does 80% mean 80% but 100% means about 90%? Is this because of the degredation of my battery (it says SoH is 80% or 81%)? Or is this by design, a buffer beyond which it does not charge?

Thanks all
Rick
Yes exactly, a degraded battery will not fully charge, my '12 (missing 2 bars) is the same, I rarely get over 90% SOC no matter how long I charge it. I generally stop charging at 80% but if I need max range I charge it longer which as you've found out will be ~90%.

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:41 pm
by futureleaf
[quote="alembic42"]Hi,
I bought a 2012 Nissan Leaf in February 2015. I am LIVID and the dealership I bought this car from is completely full of disgusting people who ripped me off with a smile. I swear to God I hate these :o and I swear to God the world would be much better without any of these evil smirking horrible little people.

Wow Rick, I can understand your frustration but honestly you bought your 2012 without doing sufficient research. I surfed THIS site for over one year before finally buying a 2012 SL with 24k miles and 11 bars.

Now my situation is that I live in Southern California where it is 77 degrees today and sunny. I have some hills but mostly flat interstate commutes. With my tires inflated to 42 psi, Leafspy Pro, and my ODBII Bluetooth active, I can get 65+ miles until turtle and that's driving 65 mph.

I hardly ever pay attention to the GOM except for temporary amusement purposes. My most accurate tool is Leafspy pro and ODBII which allows me to take 90% SOC, 205 GIDs to 65 miles when GIDS are down to 6. This is long after the VLBW has come one AND --- is showing on the GOM which means I should have been stranded on the side of the road at least miles ago. Leafspy Pro gives me the confidence to keep going to my designated QC station.

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:31 am
by alembic42
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Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:14 am
by jjeff
alembic42 wrote:But what does SoH mean if it doesn't mean the amount to which you can charge? If my SoH is 80% then how can I charge to 90%?
SoH doesn't work that way, it's just a calculation of the overall health of the battery and isn't the value of the maximum charge your Leaf will go to. My 10 bar '12 Leaf has a SoH of 53.74 but will charge to ~90% but unfortunately only has a range of ~60 or less miles when fully charged(to ~90%).

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:24 pm
by LeftieBiker
Think of SOH as "remaining capacity."

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:59 pm
by cwerdna
jjeff wrote:
alembic42 wrote:But what does SoH mean if it doesn't mean the amount to which you can charge? If my SoH is 80% then how can I charge to 90%?
SoH doesn't work that way, it's just a calculation of the overall health of the battery and isn't the value of the maximum charge your Leaf will go to. My 10 bar '12 Leaf has a SoH of 53.74 but will charge to ~90% but unfortunately only has a range of ~60 or less miles when fully charged(to ~90%).
I wouldn't get fixated on the SoC % shown by Leaf Spy when the car declares charging complete. There's no point and we don't know how the car's BMS is determining this value anyway and how inaccurate/accurate it is, what are its caveats, under what conditions it's accurate (if any), etc.

I'd rather look at AHr, SOH, Hx and max gids on a full charge as a judge of battery condition.

If I had only an '11 or '12 Leaf, I'd use gids as a proxy for a more granular state of charge value instead of the stupid 12 fuel bars and GOM. Using some goofy % that doesn't go to 100% anyway seems confusing to me. I never pay attention to it.

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:55 am
by RockyNv
A lot of stuff here but the EPA Sticker on the window still should have said something like 74 miles average city driving where there is the possibility of regenerative braking and the owners manual is pretty clear about reduced range with straight highway driving.

The Leaf to me has always been targeted at the average commute of less than 37 miles round trip per day which is still published on their site, I read the full write up before purchasing and knew up front that a new or used one would be good for my 23 mile round trip commute on city roads with speeds ranging from 40 to 50 mph.

The electric motor does not create enough waste heat to heat the car like a gasoline or diesel does therefore an electric car has to consume energy to heat the interior so the heated seats are used to help keep you warm without having to run the dash heat full time impacting range. Electric is a very different than gasoline powered so you have to learn to work with it.

Bottom line for long trips I keep my old diesel that gets 40 mpg and can go about 500 miles on a tank of fuel. For a daily commute that requires a 50 mile round trip at intestate speeds in sub freezing temperature where you can't charge at work a used Leaf is a poor choice. I ended up purchasing mine at a dealership that only sold electrics and hybrids and they told me if you regularly need to commute 50 miles on the interstate a Prius Hybrid would be a better choice than a Plug In Electric like the Leaf. Yes the Tesla would probably be adequate but at around $135,000 it is apples and oranges.

Electric cars are still on the bleeding edge so compromises are required in order to save the environment. If these compromises are not a good fit for you then its really time to move on. I would seriously consider a Prius as others have mentioned since that would appear a better fit for your commute.

Re: My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:52 pm
by cwerdna
RockyNv wrote:A lot of stuff here but the EPA Sticker on the window still should have said something like 74 miles average city driving where there is the possibility of regenerative braking and the owners manual is pretty clear about reduced range with straight highway driving.

The Leaf to me has always been targeted at the average commute of less than 37 miles round trip per day which is still published on their site, I read the full write up before purchasing and knew up front that a new or used one would be good for my 23 mile round trip commute on city roads with speeds ranging from 40 to 50 mph.
From TSB NTB11-076a from Dec 22, 2011 (accessible via http://x.nissanhelp.com/forums/Knowledg ... inkid=3297), there's all sorts of stuff about range and hints, what to show the customer, etc. along w/a table of range estimates depending on miles/kWh and down to 1 fuel bar and no power.

There's also this:
Excerpts from the “Nissan LEAF CUSTOMER DISCLOSURE FORM”
The distance you can drive (range) varies considerably depending on, for example: state of charge, weather, temperature, usage, age, topography, and manner of driving.

Range Estimates:
The range is dependent on a number of factors. Some of the factors affecting range are ambient temperature, weight - number of passengers and payload, air conditioning/heater usage, high speed or stop-and-go driving, topography, battery capacity, etc. When the battery is new, it is estimated that vehicle range with a fully charged battery under normal operation and various driving conditions will vary between 138 and 62 miles for the majority of people. These are estimates based on analysis and testing. Your individual style and location will dictate your individual range, which will vary initially. Also as the battery ages, capacity and range decline. There are an infinite number of range scenarios*, based on many variables. Here are just a few. (*The following scenarios are based on new battery life. Estimated range is based on specific variables studied through computer simulations. Individual mileage outside of estimated range scenarios will occur).

Ideal driving conditions: 138 miles
Speed: Constant 38 mph
Temperature: 68 degrees
Climate control: Off
Driving on a flat road at a constant 38 mph means less air resistance, and therefore less energy use. And at 68 degrees, there’s no need for climate control, extending the range even further. The result: a range boost up to 138 miles.

Suburban driving on a nice day: 105 miles
Speed: Average 24 mph
Temperature: 72 degrees
Climate control: Off
The average speed in this scenario is 24 mph; common when commuting and running errands. The ambient temperature is 72 degrees and the climate control is off. Not using the air conditioner and driving at slower speeds mean less energy use and a little extra range.

Highway driving in the summer: 70 miles
Speed: Average 55 mph
Temperature: 95 degrees
Climate control: On
Averaging 55 mph on the highway, in 95 degree weather, with the air conditioning on high may produce range figures like this. Higher speeds require more energy to overcome air resistance. Running the air conditioner means energy that could be used to increase range instead goes to cooling the car.

Cross-town commute on a hot day: 68 miles
Speed: Average 49 mph
Temperature: 110 degrees
Climate control: On
Driving from a rural area into the city at an average 49 mph with the air conditioning on high may produce this range. Under these conditions, climate control combined with higher-speed driving produces increased energy consumption, hence the effect on range.

Winter, urban stop-and-go, traffic jam: 62 miles
Speed: Average 15 mph
Temperature: 14 degrees
Climate control: On
Though the average speed is only 15 mph with stop-and-go traffic, the 14-degree temperature means the heater is doing a lot of work so you spend considerable time and energy heating your car rather than moving forward. Despite these conditions, it would still take more than 4 hours to run out of charge!

Driving/Operating.
Driving the vehicle at constant speed and with smooth pedal modulation improves vehicle range. Nissan also recommends heating or cooling the cabin while charging just prior to driving. Vehicle range will be reduced by: (1) high speed driving (55+ mph), (2) aggressive driving (frequent or rapid acceleration) (3), severe conditions including heavy passenger/cargo load, uphill driving at a steep incline for extended periods of time, and (4) electrical use, especially heater or air conditioner use.