Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:32 pm

lorenfb wrote:and this:
Image

Like I have nothing to do all day but play on the internet, right?
Exactly. You're at 11bars, not 12. And interestingly, your SOH is 80%, not 75%?!
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:38 pm

@lorenfb. Knowing that your SOH is actually 80%, I take back what I said about my 2013 only being marginally worse than yours. You've definitely taken better care of yours.

I had QC'd only twice on it, and for under 25 mins each time. I also charged to 80% most of the time, and only did 100% occasionally, but I do drive faster than you, hitting 75 mph whenever possible on a daily basis.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

SageBrush
Posts: 4784
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:43 pm

That riddle solved.

LorenFB, an offer for you: you continue to teach electronics and we will help you improve your counting skills. :lol:

And by the way, that 11th bar is not for long.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

BuckMkII
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am
Location: Seattle

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:51 pm

lorenfb wrote:and this:
Image

Like I have nothing to do all day but play on the internet, right?
:roll:
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2013 SV no QC, built July 2013
car grew up in San Jose CA, purchased 5/31/17 in Seattle
on 6/16/17: AHr = 56.4; SOH = 86%; Hx = 84.3; ODO = 39,250
bar 12 lost 8/21/17
on 12/25/18: AHr = 55.5; SOH = 84.9 %; Hx = 80.3; ODO = 53,018

hmmwv
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:27 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:38 pm

I'm glad we got that sorted out! But he sure took care of the car, I doubt I'll have 11 bars at his mileage, even for a car that lived its entire life in Seattle.
2013 LEAF SL w/Premium Pkg, Brilliant Silver, 55,244 miles, LeafSpy: 50.17 AHr, SOH 76%, Hx70.30% as of 11/05/2018, 10 bars, 28 QC, 2129 L2/L2

lorenfb
Posts: 2244
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:02 pm

SageBrush wrote:That riddle solved.

LorenFB, an offer for you: you continue to teach electronics and we will help you improve your counting skills. :lol:

And by the way, that 11th bar is not for long.
So what! I couldn't care less about a trivial discussion on "Remaining Bars":

Obviously over time I've given little thought to the rather crude graphical representation of the battery's
remaining Ahrs, i.e. the far right number of bars present. Once one has access to an actual numerical value
for the remaining Ahrs, e.g. from LeafDD or LeafSpy, the number of "Remaining Bars" has essentially
no value. Presently my Leaf at 54K and 51 Ahrs will never be 'see' a potential battery warranty replacement,
so rigorously monitoring the "Remaining Bars", as some seem to desire, is valueless to me. Once one accepts
the fact that "Remaining Bars" and Ahrs (greater accuracy), both provide the same insight about the Leaf's
battery degradation, attempting to relate one to the other provides no additional value and is naive.
They're one in the same!

When I began monitoring the Leaf's battery around 3/1/14 at 4K miles, the battery was at 61 Ahrs.
At 10/1/14 around 12K, the battery was at 57 Ahrs. Now at 54K (~ 2 yrs later), it's at about 51 Ahrs.

Here's an earlier screenshot which indicates the remaining Ahrs at 6.3K miles.

Image

As one can observe, the rate of change in loss of Ahrs has significantly declined over the last few years.

Bottom line: For those who are concerned about battery degradation, get LeafSpy so you can more
accurately monitor the battery using Ahrs and not be concerned about the crude graphical display
on the far right in the instrument cluster and when bars 'drop'. It's about as useful as the GOM!
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:22 am

lorenfb wrote:
SageBrush wrote:That riddle solved.

LorenFB, an offer for you: you continue to teach electronics and we will help you improve your counting skills. :lol:

And by the way, that 11th bar is not for long.
So what! I couldn't care less about a trivial discussion on "Remaining Bars":
"so what"?!

Details matter. If you can't be bothered to write correctly about what you know, then how can we believe that what you've written is what you actually know?

And indeed, leafspy results are more accurate, but alas, your screenshot shows you even got that wrong! You're at 52.78 Ahr and 80% SOH, NOT 51 Ahr and 75% SOH.

With just those simple facts being so far off, the rest of your claims become dubious. What isn't in doubt is that you've taken care of your battery's health while commuting in SoCal. Or course, living near the beach helps with that (you posted about driving to Oxnard along PCH), since your summer average temps are about 10 degrees cooler than my area (check weather.com's almanac for your city and compare it to mine - notice the record-highs chart!).
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

SageBrush
Posts: 4784
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:42 am

lorenfb wrote: So what! I couldn't care less about a trivial discussion on "Remaining Bars":
Then do not participate in that part of the discussion, and certainly do not provide wrong data. You have @DaveinOly running off on a tangent now that LeafSpy is unreliable and maybe the LEAF battery is not so bio-degradable as trolls like me assert. So where are we with your battery ? Well, about 20% degradation after ~ 4 years. Right on track to have a hobbled battery after the warranty expires. Nissan thanks you for your business, and looks forward to selling you another 7 year wonder-car.

I agree with the remainder of your post, and am happy to read your example of a shallower degradation rate these last two years. Gerry in AZ reported the same degradation slope from new to 7 (or was it less ?) bars.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

johnlocke
Posts: 401
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:56 am

Lost the second bar today! ODO = 34271 mi. AHr = 59.36, SOH =74%, Hx = 66.91% 58 QC's, 640 L1/L2's. 271 GID's at full charge. Could it be that the first bar is 20% and the next 3 bars are 5% each? That would give a 4 bar loss at 65% which is close enough to the 66% you would expect for the loss of 4 bars out of 12. Also the 20% loss of capacity is what Nissan expected at 100000 mi. So the car would have all twelve bars up to the end of the warranty period if the battery held up as expected. Then the last 8 bars would be 8% each. Or it could be that first bar is 20% and the next 11 are about 7% each which is more likely to my mind. Who knows how Nissan has programmed them. Time will tell. I'm expecting a replacement battery by next summer at this rate. Have there been any reports of a 3 bar loss yet?

As far as the capacity bars go, I agree that they're nearly useless as indicators but they are incredibly important as far as the warranty goes. That's the point of the discussion here. The warranty is based on the loss of 4 bars and Nissan has not defined what that value actually is. So we get to play a guessing game based on our observations.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:03 am

johnlocke wrote:Lost the second bar today! ODO = 34271 mi. AHr = 59.36, SOH =74%, Hx = 66.91% 58 QC's, 640 L1/L2's. 271 GID's at full charge. Could it be that the first bar is 20% and the next 3 bars are 5% each? That would give a 4 bar loss at 65% which is close enough to the 66% you would expect for the loss of 4 bars out of 12. Also the 20% loss of capacity is what Nissan expected at 100000 mi. So the car would have all twelve bars up to the end of the warranty period if the battery held up as expected. Then the last 8 bars would be 8% each. Or it could be that first bar is 20% and the next 11 are about 7% each which is more likely to my mind. Who knows how Nissan has programmed them. Time will tell. I'm expecting a replacement battery by next summer at this rate. Have there been any reports of a 3 bar loss yet?

As far as the capacity bars go, I agree that they're nearly useless as indicators but they are incredibly important as far as the warranty goes. That's the point of the discussion here. The warranty is based on the loss of 4 bars and Nissan has not defined what that value actually is. So we get to play a guessing game based on our observations.
Sorry that yourself and a few others are the guinea pigs. If it's any consolation, I (probably everyone else too, but can't speak for them) REALLY APPRECIATE your contribution! :p

Seeing the 2nd bar drop at 74% really helps allay my fears that we'd need to be below 60% before getting a replacement battery. Keeping fingers crossed.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

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