Evoforce
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:57 pm

cdherman wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:59 pm
Hello All, Long time, no visits from me. Things seem quiet here.

I dropped 2nd bar today. 2016 30kwh battery. Had the "software fix" done about a year ago. It brought my SOH back up to around 85%, but now I'm back to 78% SOH per LeafSpy Pro.

Car was manufactured in May 2016, put into service Sept 2016. 39,101 miles. 17QC, 1643 L1/L2 See's heat in KC summers, cold in winter. Garaged at home and covered at work though, so heat bars seldom exceed 6 total.

I've got a Juicenet EVSA and tend to charge only to 80% in the warm months. Cooler weather I am finding that 80% cramps my style more and more, so I try and charge to 100% in the AM. Nice to start with warmer bats too.

I've been trying to find some sort of 30kwh decay model or spreadsheet. Would like to know what my chances are to get a new batter in the next 4.5 years. Need to drop three more bars, right? Seems unlikely......
Need to drop 4 bars. The very first bar you dropped is the equivalent of dropping 2 of the subsequent bars. Although you have dropped two bars the next 2 bars will be like the time it took to drop the first.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

johnlocke
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:50 pm

Jan update. 317 GID's 69.46 AH, SOH=87.39%, Hx=67.37%, 73508 total mi. 28579 mi on new battery. 19 DCFC and 549 l2 charges on the new battery. The battery is continuing to slowly degrade. In the cooler weather, I still lost a couple of GID's last month. I'm down about 13% from new. 19 months in, the old battery was down 17%, so the new battery is doing a bit better. The difference isn't a lot but it is enough that I expect to hit the 100K warranty limit well before the new battery would qualify for replacement. I expect to be down about 25% at 100K. At that point the car will have barely enough range to satisfy my daily use. The battery will be down 4 bars by about 125K miles. I need to start looking at my options. If Fenix ever actually produces a battery, I'll take a look at that. It's a hard sell though. VW has gotten off to bad start with ID3 software problems but I will still want to see the ID4. The ford Mustang EV just doesn't seem to excite me. A Tesla 3 or a Y would be a safe bet and the Cybertruck is an outside chance. Nothing else seems likely. The Nissan Leaf+ has enough range but I don't trust their battery technology or software expertise. GM is also someone I can't trust. Everybody else seems overpriced for what they offer. Even $50K seems like a lot to pay for a new car. If Tesla announces their "million mile" battery this spring, that would be the icing on the cake.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

cwerdna
Posts: 10788
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:54 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:50 pm
I expect to be down about 25% at 100K. At that point the car will have barely enough range to satisfy my daily use. The battery will be down 4 bars by about 125K miles. I need to start looking at my options.
...
GM is also someone I can't trust. Everybody else seems overpriced for what they offer. Even $50K seems like a lot to pay for a new car.
I'm no fan of GM but maybe we'll see good used '17 Bolt prices as they come off their 3 year leases? The first Bolt deliveries happened in mid Dec 2016 (https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en ... oltev.html).

The battery and much of the EV bits are warranted for 8 years/100K miles (see page 321 and 322 of https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gm ... Manual.pdf). The rest of the car will be outside the 3 year/36K basic warranty.

The range of my Bolt is a game changer vs. my '13 Leaf.
johnlocke wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:50 pm
If Tesla announces their "million mile" battery this spring, that would be the icing on the cake.
LOL. just like their "million mile" power train: viewtopic.php?p=498198#p498198.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 15065
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:12 pm

Hey, I'm quite sure that the cumulative mileage for every Tesla ever sold will easily exceed one million miles!
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 10788
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:31 pm

Oh yes, and I should add these observations about Bolt thermal management: https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/batte ... ost-512173. Unfortunately, as that guy has posted about before, it's a shame that Bolts before '19 don't have a target charge level limiter. All you get is hilltop reserve on/off.

So, if plugged in (on Bolts before '19), unless you have a timer/delayed charging enabled, it's going to charge up to full or hilltop reserve. And, from his post "Edit: also to add if you are using any type of scheduling (either in the EVSE or the car) for charging it does not count as "plugged in" when the car is not allowed to charge."

On my '19, I can set that limiter to as low as 40%.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

johnlocke
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:19 am

cwerdna wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:54 pm
johnlocke wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:50 pm
I expect to be down about 25% at 100K. At that point the car will have barely enough range to satisfy my daily use. The battery will be down 4 bars by about 125K miles. I need to start looking at my options.
...
GM is also someone I can't trust. Everybody else seems overpriced for what they offer. Even $50K seems like a lot to pay for a new car.
I'm no fan of GM but maybe we'll see good used '17 Bolt prices as they come off their 3 year leases? The first Bolt deliveries happened in mid Dec 2016 (https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en ... oltev.html).

The battery and much of the EV bits are warranted for 8 years/100K miles (see page 321 and 322 of https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gm ... Manual.pdf). The rest of the car will be outside the 3 year/36K basic warranty.

The range of my Bolt is a game changer vs. my '13 Leaf.
johnlocke wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:50 pm
If Tesla announces their "million mile" battery this spring, that would be the icing on the cake.
LOL. just like their "million mile" power train: viewtopic.php?p=498198#p498198.
How long do you really expect any car to last? If I get 350,000 miles out of a Tesla without have to replace the battery, that would be 20 years of operation. The older batteries in Tesla S's seem to be down about 10% at 150,000 miles and I expect that the packs in the model 3 to do a bit better. If the battery and powertrain last half as long as Tesla claims, that would still be 3 times as long as the average ICE and twice as long as the best of them. The only people who really care about the million mile figure are taxi companies and truckers. I'm just paranoid about battery life after my experience with the Leaf. I want a battery that will last the life of the car with minimal degradation.

I had hoped to see off-lease model 3's by the time I had to replace the Leaf but that 's not going to happen. I still remember GM from the 80's so I just can't trust them. The Bolt might be fine but it''s still a GM product. Ford is better but not by much. Both companies have too much invested in ICE's and not a lot of enthusiasm for EV's. Volkswagen seems to have committed themselves to EV's but are having teething problems with the ID3. I still want to see the ID4 and the Vision. The Korean's look interesting but Hyundai and Kia both have had quality issues. Also low volumes of production mean that there isn't much to go on.

As far as the bolt's 100K warranty goes, the Leaf also has a 100K warranty. At 73000 miles, I'm half way through my second battery. The warranty is meaningless if the basic product is shoddy to start with. That was my mistake with the Leaf, I believed that a 100K, 8 year warranty meant that they had solved their battery issues. Silly me.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

GaleHawkins
Posts: 332
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:19 am

Since some leafs have battery issues and others don't I wonder about other technical and user issues. Before Nissan replaces a 30kWh battery do they check out the charger and motor for example?

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:38 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:19 am
cwerdna wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:54 pm
johnlocke wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:50 pm
I expect to be down about 25% at 100K. At that point the car will have barely enough range to satisfy my daily use. The battery will be down 4 bars by about 125K miles. I need to start looking at my options.
...
GM is also someone I can't trust. Everybody else seems overpriced for what they offer. Even $50K seems like a lot to pay for a new car.
I'm no fan of GM but maybe we'll see good used '17 Bolt prices as they come off their 3 year leases? The first Bolt deliveries happened in mid Dec 2016 (https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en ... oltev.html).

The battery and much of the EV bits are warranted for 8 years/100K miles (see page 321 and 322 of https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gm ... Manual.pdf). The rest of the car will be outside the 3 year/36K basic warranty.

The range of my Bolt is a game changer vs. my '13 Leaf.
johnlocke wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:50 pm
If Tesla announces their "million mile" battery this spring, that would be the icing on the cake.
LOL. just like their "million mile" power train: viewtopic.php?p=498198#p498198.
How long do you really expect any car to last? If I get 350,000 miles out of a Tesla without have to replace the battery, that would be 20 years of operation. The older batteries in Tesla S's seem to be down about 10% at 150,000 miles and I expect that the packs in the model 3 to do a bit better. If the battery and powertrain last half as long as Tesla claims, that would still be 3 times as long as the average ICE and twice as long as the best of them. The only people who really care about the million mile figure are taxi companies and truckers. I'm just paranoid about battery life after my experience with the Leaf. I want a battery that will last the life of the car with minimal degradation.

I had hoped to see off-lease model 3's by the time I had to replace the Leaf but that 's not going to happen. I still remember GM from the 80's so I just can't trust them. The Bolt might be fine but it''s still a GM product. Ford is better but not by much. Both companies have too much invested in ICE's and not a lot of enthusiasm for EV's. Volkswagen seems to have committed themselves to EV's but are having teething problems with the ID3. I still want to see the ID4 and the Vision. The Korean's look interesting but Hyundai and Kia both have had quality issues. Also low volumes of production mean that there isn't much to go on.

As far as the bolt's 100K warranty goes, the Leaf also has a 100K warranty. At 73000 miles, I'm half way through my second battery. The warranty is meaningless if the basic product is shoddy to start with. That was my mistake with the Leaf, I believed that a 100K, 8 year warranty meant that they had solved their battery issues. Silly me.
I'm also not a fan of GM. Actually, considering what they did to the EV-1 and Tesla's attempts to sell in various states, I am almost religiously opposed to them.

But the Bolt is predominantly an LG product, and I've had decent results with LG. Perhaps a used Bolt is in order? Something to tide you over until used model Y's are available?
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

cwerdna
Posts: 10788
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:55 pm

^^^
Yep. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... production lists what LG supplies. The 64% (South) Korean content like on http://gtcarlot.com/data/Chevrolet/Bolt ... 35824.html sounds correct. Not at home right now to check my own window sticker.

I too have numerous reasons for not being a GM fan. When I got my 1st Leaf in 2013, I'd considered a Volt but there were various reasons I passed on Volt. Part of it was wanting to reward Nissan for investing and taking the risk in BEVs and not wanting to reward GM for business practices I'm not at all happy about.
GaleHawkins wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:19 am
Since some leafs have battery issues and others don't I wonder about other technical and user issues. Before Nissan replaces a 30kWh battery do they check out the charger and motor for example?
Why would they? What would there be to check when the battery is the thing that's degrading and they go by capacity bars? OBC and motor should be unchanged from '13 to '17 model years.

Dealer would look at capacity bars, make sure the firmware is the latest related to capacity reporting and might check for DTCs.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GaleHawkins
Posts: 332
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:45 pm

They are the battery's input and output so both may impact SOH over time one day at a time.

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