LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:06 pm

We still don't know where the 75% SOH is coming from. It sounds like the car has a solid 11 bars (the first one is worth 15% of total capacity) and a range that corresponds with that. If the SOH is really 75% and the OP is just driving slowly, then as noted above, a new, free battery may be in the future...

European charger configurations differ from North American ones, where all mid and top grade Leafs have the 6.6kwh charger.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 5189
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:47 pm

Ac123 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:27 pm
It has 11 bars with a soh of 74% which I understand should be 9 bars?
First things first, get the BMS updated if not already done.

We *think* that the 12th and 1st capacity bars ~ 16% of capacity each and the intervening bars are 6.5% each. There is some wiggle room here so either your BMS needs an update or you are on the cusp of losing the 11th bar.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

johnlocke
Posts: 623
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:14 pm

Sept 1 update. 300 GID's, SOH=82.60%, Hx=58.93%. 81286 total miles, 36357 miles on new battery, 136 L3 total, 22 on new battery, 1595 l2 total, 721 on new battery. I'm driving a lot less now so wear and tear on the battery is less but it's still losing power at about the same rate per mile as before. It still looks like I won't hit the 4 bar down mark before the 100K warranty limit. At the current rate, I'll get 70K out of this battery before it hits 8 bars. That would put me at about 115000 miles overall. I'll probably trade it in sometime next year. Tesla is in the lead as a replacement but I'd like to look at the ID4 before I make up my mind. State and Federal tax credits on the ID4 that I don't get with a Tesla could make a difference. If Congress were to extend the federal credit to Tesla as well, that would make a big difference as well.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

cwerdna
Posts: 11014
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:51 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:14 pm
I'll probably trade it in sometime next year. Tesla is in the lead as a replacement but I'd like to look at the ID4 before I make up my mind. State and Federal tax credits on the ID4 that I don't get with a Tesla could make a difference. If Congress were to extend the federal credit to Tesla as well, that would make a big difference as well.
You're in CA, so you have PLENTY of choices of EVs. All non-Tesla and non-GM EV/PHEV makers are still eligible for full Federal tax credit, for now.

https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligible-vehicles shows Tesla Model 3 and Y eligible for CVRP. More expensive models don't qualify: https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/faqs ... ity-list-0. I never qualified (2 year lease on Leaf; used Leaf and now I make too much $ vs. the current income limits so n/a for my Bolt).

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

coleafrado
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:58 pm

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:39 am

johnlocke wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:14 pm
Tesla is in the lead as a replacement but I'd like to look at the ID4 before I make up my mind.
Have you test driven a Bolt?

Goodbar
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:39 am
Delivery Date: 31 Jul 2017
Location: Washington, D.C. Metro

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:57 am

Just beyond the 3-year anniversary with our 2017. We've been averaging 8k miles/year and I've continued to be careful to avoid high SOC and hot weather (usually 50-80% unless a full charge for a longer trip). Usually parked in the shade in hot weather. It seems like SoH did not rebound in warm weather this year and it has continued eroding. Haven't lost the first bar, but it must be just around the corner.

Is there anything to be interpreted from the big difference between SoH and Hx? It didn't used to be so large.

Also, the L1/L2 charges are implausibly high. Does it count every time the car is plugged in and every time charging is started? I have the charge timer configured for early AM. I can't think of another scenario that would give that elevated number.

Image
2017 Leaf SV OpenEVSE 40A

GerryAZ
Gold Member
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Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:44 am

Yes, with charge timer set, L1/L2 count will increment by 1 when plugged in before scheduled charge time as car goes through system checks. It will then increment again when charge starts. If you have climate control timer set to start after charge is complete (or you start climate control remotely), then charge count will increment again. Therefore, you could have 1, 2, or 3 L1/L2 charge counts for one charge cycle.

Hx seems to be inversely related to internal resistance of the battery, but probably not directly related to energy storage capability. Therefore, Hx vs. SOH can vary depending upon driving, storage, and charging patterns. I found that highway driving and quick charging improved Hx and SOH (at least temporarily) while slower driving and slower charging caused the numbers to drop on my 2015. I have not observed the same pattern with 2019, but it may be too soon to tell.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

Goodbar
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:39 am
Delivery Date: 31 Jul 2017
Location: Washington, D.C. Metro

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:54 am

GerryAZ wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:44 am
Yes, with charge timer set, L1/L2 count will increment by 1 when plugged in before scheduled charge time as car goes through system checks. It will then increment again when charge starts. If you have climate control timer set to start after charge is complete (or you start climate control remotely), then charge count will increment again. Therefore, you could have 1, 2, or 3 L1/L2 charge counts for one charge cycle.

Hx seems to be inversely related to internal resistance of the battery, but probably not directly related to energy storage capability. Therefore, Hx vs. SOH can vary depending upon driving, storage, and charging patterns. I found that highway driving and quick charging improved Hx and SOH (at least temporarily) while slower driving and slower charging caused the numbers to drop on my 2015. I have not observed the same pattern with 2019, but it may be too soon to tell.
Thanks. Covid has reduced our highway driving this year, and QCs along with it.
2017 Leaf SV OpenEVSE 40A

lorenfb
Posts: 2464
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:48 am

GerryAZ wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:44 am
Yes, with charge timer set, L1/L2 count will increment by 1 when plugged in before scheduled charge time as car goes through system checks. It will then increment again when charge starts. If you have climate control timer set to start after charge is complete (or you start climate control remotely), then charge count will increment again. Therefore, you could have 1, 2, or 3 L1/L2 charge counts for one charge cycle.

Hx seems to be inversely related to internal resistance of the battery, but probably not directly related to energy storage capability. Therefore, Hx vs. SOH can vary depending upon driving, storage, and charging patterns.
So it's actually monitoring battery conductance, right? Since Hx declines from an initial value of 100, it's mostly likely
a ratio of the present conductance to the initial conductance. Given that, it should also track SOH over time as the battery degrades, right?
Have you discovered any references from Nissan, or do you have data/calculations which refutes this?
GerryAZ wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:44 am
I found that highway driving and quick charging improved Hx and SOH (at least temporarily) while slower driving and slower charging caused the numbers to drop on my 2015. I have not observed the same pattern with 2019, but it may be too soon to tell.
Given this anecdotal info, do you have any recommendations for Leaf 1 drivers?
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

GerryAZ
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Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:46 am

The only references I have seen to Hx have been in numerous threads on this forum--nothing in the Nissan service manual (for either 2011 or 2015) provides lists or definitions of information available from the CAN Bus. On all of the vehicles I have data for (the replacement battery for the 2011, the 2015, and the 2019), Hx started out above 100% so it must be referenced to some nominal value and not the actual starting value for the particular battery. I have the most data for the 2015 and Hx did seem to inversely track the internal resistance over the 4-1/2 years I drove that car. I observed/tracked internal resistance by noting voltage drop under full load and calculating approximate internal resistance periodically.

Based upon my observations with the 2011 and 2015, I recommend driving the car as you wish. Don't be afraid to accelerate hard or drive on the freeway within range limitations. Don't be afraid to routinely discharge the battery deeply and/or charge to 100%, but don't let it sit deeply discharged for more than a few hours and don't leave it parked at full charge for more than a day or two. In general, try to minimize the time spent at full charge and have charge level between 40% and 70% for extended parking (such as at the airport). Don't be afraid to use "B" mode to get maximum regeneration. Don't be afraid to use DCQC when necessary, but try to avoid multiple QC sessions in a day to avoid overheating the battery (especially in high ambient temperatures). Use the highest rate of L2 charging that your car and power source will support for routine charging to minimize the drop in Leaf Spy numbers. Also, faster L2 charging is more efficient if the battery is deeply discharged (no real difference when battery is close to full charge due to charge tapering). When the 2015 (with 6.6 kW onboard charger) was new, it took 26.41 kWh to charge from shutdown to full charge using my 12-ampere EVSE Upgrade unit on 240 volts at home. Using my 30-ampere AeroVironment EVSE, it took 25.45 kWh on 208 volts at my workshop and 24.85 kWh on 240 volts at home.
Last edited by GerryAZ on Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

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