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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:40 am
by rcm4453
johnlocke wrote:Lost the second bar today! ODO = 34271 mi. AHr = 59.36, SOH =74%, Hx = 66.91% 58 QC's, 640 L1/L2's. 271 GID's at full charge. Could it be that the first bar is 20% and the next 3 bars are 5% each? That would give a 4 bar loss at 65% which is close enough to the 66% you would expect for the loss of 4 bars out of 12. Also the 20% loss of capacity is what Nissan expected at 100000 mi. So the car would have all twelve bars up to the end of the warranty period if the battery held up as expected. Then the last 8 bars would be 8% each. Or it could be that first bar is 20% and the next 11 are about 7% each which is more likely to my mind. Who knows how Nissan has programmed them. Time will tell. I'm expecting a replacement battery by next summer at this rate. Have there been any reports of a 3 bar loss yet?

As far as the capacity bars go, I agree that they're nearly useless as indicators but they are incredibly important as far as the warranty goes. That's the point of the discussion here. The warranty is based on the loss of 4 bars and Nissan has not defined what that value actually is. So we get to play a guessing game based on our observations.

Someone has already lost 4 bars on their 2016 30kwh leaf.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... er#p502307

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:09 am
by VAB5
I lost my 2nd bar today at 5,940 miles. AHr= 58.28, SOH=73%, Hx=73.13%. 5 QC, 257 L1/L2.

5,940 miles. Sweet.

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:27 pm
by BuckMkII
VAB5 wrote: 5,940 miles. Sweet.
:shock: Where do you live? Phoenix? The Sahara? On VENUS?!?

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:09 pm
by Oils4AsphaultOnly
VAB5 wrote:I lost my 2nd bar today at 5,940 miles. AHr= 58.28, SOH=73%, Hx=73.13%. 5 QC, 257 L1/L2.

5,940 miles. Sweet.
What's the build date? Was it sitting on the lot with a full charge for a LONG time in AZ?!?!

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:31 pm
by matthanna06
There's been a lot of discussion about at what SOH the bars will drop on the 30kWh here, and I thought I'd see if Nissan would give me an answer. Tweeted at them, and they directed me to their Leaf chat support.

Short answer was: On a 30kWh, 9 bars =~ 70% and 8 bars =~ 63%. I didn't ask about SOH or Ahr or anything beyond that. Doesn't seem like that meshes well with people losing a 2nd bar at ~73% SOH or ~high 50's Ah's.

Here's the chat transcript, for what it's worth:

Code: Select all

Jeffrey (9/27/2017, 11:35:54 AM): Thank you for chatting with the Nissan LEAF team. This is Jeffrey. How can I help you today? 
Me (9/27/2017, 11:36:42 AM): Hi Jeffrey - Thank you for the help. I'm interested in buying a 2017 leaf and taking advantage of my local utility company's rebate, but I have a question about the warranty. 
Jeffrey (9/27/2017, 11:36:57 AM): Hello Matthew! I'd be more than happy to assist you! 
Me (9/27/2017, 11:37:14 AM): THe warranty I see on Nissan's website says that the 30kWh battery is warrantied to keep 9 or more bars of capacity on the capacity meter during the warranty period. 
Jeffrey (9/27/2017, 11:37:29 AM): Correct. 
Me (9/27/2017, 11:37:39 AM): My question is about how much range or what percentage of the 30 kWh that translates to. 
Me (9/27/2017, 11:38:05 AM): I know how long my commute is, but I want to make sure that the warranty will let me cover it and don't know what "9 bars" means! 
Jeffrey (9/27/2017, 11:38:39 AM): 9 bars is approximately 70% of the 30 kWh capacity. 
Me (9/27/2017, 11:40:46 AM): Thank you. So if the capacity dropped below that approximately 70% during the warranty period, the bars would change from 9 to 8, and I would be protected from capacity loss much greater than that 70% remaining? 
Me (9/27/2017, 11:41:11 AM): Or it switches from 10 to 9 at 70% and the switch from 9 to 8 would be lower? 
Jeffrey (9/27/2017, 11:42:09 AM): If at full charge the capacity is below 9 bars (8 or less), and the vehicle is still under warranty, the battery would then be replaced. 
Me (9/27/2017, 11:43:51 AM): Great, this is very helpful to me. I still want to clarify one thing though. If 9 bars is 70%, and the battery is eligible for replacement at 8 bars, approximately what percentage of the capacity is 8 bars? 
Me (9/27/2017, 11:44:39 AM): Because if it switches to 8 bars at, 65%, for example, then I need to be comfortable covering my commute with anything down to about 65%, right? 
Jeffrey (9/27/2017, 11:44:56 AM): Let me take a look, one moment please. 
Me (9/27/2017, 11:45:47 AM): Thank you very much for the help. 
Jeffrey (9/27/2017, 11:49:46 AM): Thank you for the wait, 8 bars is approximately 63% of the battery capacity. 
Me (9/27/2017, 11:51:26 AM): Thank you very much - this is exactly the information I was seeking. Have a great day! 

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:17 pm
by Oils4AsphaultOnly
matthanna06 wrote:There's been a lot of discussion about at what SOH the bars will drop on the 30kWh here, and I thought I'd see if Nissan would give me an answer. Tweeted at them, and they directed me to their Leaf chat support.

Short answer was: On a 30kWh, 9 bars =~ 70% and 8 bars =~ 63%. I didn't ask about SOH or Ahr or anything beyond that. Doesn't seem like that meshes well with people losing a 2nd bar at ~73% SOH or ~high 50's Ah's.
Since 9 bars was off the top of his head, and he had to ask about the 8 bars, I'd assume that the 9bars number is unreliable.

So extrapolating that 80% is 1 lost bar, and 63% is 4 lost bars, we divide 17 by 3 yielding ~6% each bar after the first. Giving us 74% for the 2nd lost bar, and 68% for the 3rd lost bar (70% rounded up).

Pulling this out of my nether regions, but maybe it's an asymptotic curve fit (19% first, 8% for 2nd, then 6% for third, and 5% for fourth)?

Edit: Thank you matthanna06 for the brilliance of simply asking Nissan!

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:09 pm
by johnlocke
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
matthanna06 wrote:There's been a lot of discussion about at what SOH the bars will drop on the 30kWh here, and I thought I'd see if Nissan would give me an answer. Tweeted at them, and they directed me to their Leaf chat support.

Short answer was: On a 30kWh, 9 bars =~ 70% and 8 bars =~ 63%. I didn't ask about SOH or Ahr or anything beyond that. Doesn't seem like that meshes well with people losing a 2nd bar at ~73% SOH or ~high 50's Ah's.
Since 9 bars was off the top of his head, and he had to ask about the 8 bars, I'd assume that the 9bars number is unreliable.

So extrapolating that 80% is 1 lost bar, and 63% is 4 lost bars, we divide 17 by 3 yielding ~6% each bar after the first. Giving us 74% for the 2nd lost bar, and 68% for the 3rd lost bar (70% rounded up).

Pulling this out of my nether regions, but maybe it's an asymptotic curve fit (19% first, 8% for 2nd, then 6% for third, and 5% for fourth)?

Edit: Thank you matthanna06 for the brilliance of simply asking Nissan!
Most likely bet is 20% for the first bar and 6% each for the next three ( and probably the rest as well ). Zero bars at about 15% if anyone ever ran a battery that far. Asymptotic curve isn't likely since you'ld end up at 0 bars with 50% of battery capacity left. Call me cynical but my guess is that Nissan wanted to have all 12 bars show until the end of the warranty period. "Look folks, see how well our battery holds up! 100000 miles and it still has all 12 bars!" Probably would have worked in cool climates like the northwest and the northeast. Just not in the south and southwest. That plus the fact that Leafs only average 8000-9000 miles a year. 8 years and 60-70K miles before the warranty runs out. It's Idiots like me who bought a Leaf because I have cheap Solar and planned to drive it into the ground that are ruining Nissan's master plan.

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:30 pm
by SageBrush
matthanna06 wrote:There's been a lot of discussion about at what SOH the bars will drop on the 30kWh here, and I thought I'd see if Nissan would give me an answer. Tweeted at them, and they directed me to their Leaf chat support.

Short answer was: On a 30kWh, 9 bars =~ 70% and 8 bars =~ 63%. I didn't ask about SOH or Ahr or anything beyond that. Doesn't seem like that meshes well with people losing a 2nd bar at ~73% SOH or ~high 50's Ah's.
Very informative, thanks

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:45 pm
by SageBrush
johnlocke wrote:Call me cynical but my guess is that Nissan wanted to have all 12 bars show until the end of the warranty period. "Look folks, see how well our battery holds up! 100000 miles and it still has all 12 bars!" Probably would have worked in cool climates like the northwest and the northeast. Just not in the south and southwest. That plus the fact that Leafs only average 8000-9000 miles a year. 8 years and 60-70K miles before the warranty runs out. It's Idiots like me who bought a Leaf because I have cheap Solar and planned to drive it into the ground that are ruining Nissan's master plan.
I doubt Nissan cares how many bars show if it does not cost them money. Their current manipulation saves them money in two ways:

1. At lease end a car with 12 bars is worth more than a car with 11 bars ... and 11 bars is valued more than 10, etc
2. If a 24 kWh model was subject to a warranty claim at 33% battery degradation and the 30 kWh model at 36% degradation, they have bumped up the degradation about 10% before they have to pay a claim. *

The truth of the matter though is that a huge number of battery claims (I suspect way more than a majority of cars) will come due before 8 yrs/100k miles and two battery replacement stories will be common. I cannot imagine what Nissan's business case is here unless Nissan plans nasty surprises for the consumer in the future and/or the CARB credits are extra valuable.

*
Or to use Ed's rather goofy way of looking at things,
Using EPA 3.7 miles per kWh,
On a 24 kWh model the owner had to suffer about 22 kWh * 0.33 * 3.7 m/kWh = 26.86 miles of range loss before Nissan cared,
On a 30 kWh model the owner has to suffer about 28 kWh * 0.36 * 3.7 m/kWh = 37.29 miles of range loss before Nissan cares.
So in a 30 kWh model, Nissan has placed about half of the extra 6 kWh capacity outside of a warranty claim.

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:20 pm
by cwerdna
jbuntz wrote:
cwerdna wrote:https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan. ... 294298139/ is a report of a 3 bar loser on a 30 kWh car. Post says location is Chandler, AZ, states car is 1.5 years old and shows 14,099 miles on the odo.
So he gets a new battery with the next bar loss?

Sam Backus, also from AZ, is reporting 3 bar loss in that same thread....
Sam Backus at https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan. ... 815894953/ is now posting pics of being down 4 bars on his '16 SL in Phoenix. This makes at least the 2nd 4 bar loser on these 30 kWh Leafs.

From his post, I see these stats:
AHr: 47.42
SOH: 59%
Hx: 55.97%
odo: 24,004 miles

Seems like these model year '16 30 kWh batteries are about as bad as the '11 Leaf batteries in the heat.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when '17 Leafs in Phoenix hit the 2 year mark/go thru 2 Phoenix summers.