samrovner
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:13 pm

jbuntz wrote:
samrovner wrote:It's crazy to think I dropped two more bars in that short of a duration.
Sam, you lost bar 3 and 4 in 2 months?
Yep, pretty much. The good news is that the dealer ordered my new battery today and I am hopeful that this battery pack was an anomaly. Still so happy I decided to lease again like my 2013 leaf. Almost bought this one.

Also pretty stoked because they said I can watch the work get done. Something fascinates me about seeing the battery swap done.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:32 am

johnlocke wrote:It appears that battery degradation is a function of ageing and ambient temps. Mileage doesn't appear to be related. Because of the way that Nissan implemented the capacity loss bars most people haven't noticed the loss yet. What we seem to be seeing is that people who bought in early 2016 and live in hotter climates are seeing the most degradation. What I'd be curious to know is who has a 2016 and lives in a warm climate like Phoenix or Dallas and hasn't seen major degradation? Is this a limited problem with a few cars or is it endemic to the 30 KWH battery? Cars reporting losses seem to be across a wide spread of purchase dates so a bad batch of batteries doesn't seem likely but is still possible.
Degradation happens under several scenarios but the big one in most of these is the TIME @high SOC combined with heat.

Neither high SOC or heat "alone" is anywhere near that significant. It has to be all 3 to see packs going that fast. But 30 kwh packs don't have the range to do 80% charging in most cases. Nissan should have done the 90% like Tesla (and everyone else)
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 7059.6 mi, 95.35% SOH
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smnewport
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:29 pm

Anybody ever consider the possibility of the extra cells crammed into the same space as the 24 kW pack, hence Reducing the cooling ability as the batteries are much closer together, thereby causing the unexpected premature degradwtion?

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:52 pm

smnewport wrote:Anybody ever consider the possibility of the extra cells crammed into the same space as the 24 kW pack, hence Reducing the cooling ability as the batteries are much closer together, thereby causing the unexpected premature degradwtion?
Extra cells would produce higher voltage that the car couldn't use. What they've done is use the same number of cells, with more capacity per cell. The cells may be slightly larger, but mainly they just hold more energy per cell. I suspect that the chemistry that Nissan used to get that higher energy density is less heat and age tolerant than the previous two generations of cells.
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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:13 pm

I wondered if the 30kwh pack is actually just the 24kwh pack with different parameters in the software, so it's stressed more and hence degrades faster.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
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johnlocke
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:50 pm

SageBrush wrote:
johnlocke wrote:It appears that battery degradation is a function of ageing and ambient temps. Mileage doesn't appear to be related.
True in a practical way, since these are all low mileage cars.
Yes but many are 20,000 miles or less. I'm at 36,000 miles and am down two bars. I'm pretty sure that there are 2016's with even higher mileage than mine out there. If mileage was a factor, I'd expect the high mileage cars to be clustered together with similar bar losses. That doesn't appear to be the case. Age combined with location seems to be a better predictor. I'd still like to hear from people in Arizona, Texas, and Florida who have 2016 30 KWH cars who don't have battery degradation. Some loss is inevitable but by Nissan's estimates a two year old car with 25,000 miles on it should only have a 5% loss (based on Nissan's estimate of 80% capacity at 100,000 miles and eight years old for a typical owner). Until we hear from those with minimal losses we won't have a real picture of the problem.
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DaveEV
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:57 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:I wondered if the 30kwh pack is actually just the 24kwh pack with different parameters in the software, so it's stressed more and hence degrades faster.
No, if this were the case, you'd see much higher voltages when charged to 100% and/or discharged to turtle. But they are the same.

SageBrush
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:55 am

johnlocke wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
johnlocke wrote:It appears that battery degradation is a function of ageing and ambient temps. Mileage doesn't appear to be related.
True in a practical way, since these are all low mileage cars.
Yes but many are 20,000 miles or less. I'm at 36,000 miles and am down two bars. I'm pretty sure that there are 2016's with even higher mileage than mine out there. If mileage was a factor, I'd expect the high mileage cars to be clustered together with similar bar losses. That doesn't appear to be the case. Age combined with location seems to be a better predictor. I'd still like to hear from people in Arizona, Texas, and Florida who have 2016 30 KWH cars who don't have battery degradation. Some loss is inevitable but by Nissan's estimates a two year old car with 25,000 miles on it should only have a 5% loss (based on Nissan's estimate of 80% capacity at 100,000 miles and eight years old for a typical owner). Until we hear from those with minimal losses we won't have a real picture of the problem.
I was not clear, I meant that any car below below 100k miles is low mileage, so we lack sensitivity to declare that mileage is not in play.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:23 am

smnewport wrote:Anybody ever consider the possibility of the extra cells crammed into the same space as the 24 kW pack, hence Reducing the cooling ability as the batteries are much closer together, thereby causing the unexpected premature degradwtion?
Nothing in your statement is correct.

the cells are smaller and there is actually MORE space between the cells. A LEAF Tech says there is about a "two washer" larger gap than the older packs. The cells are simply newer and smaller, denser, etc.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 7059.6 mi, 95.35% SOH
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:27 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:I wondered if the 30kwh pack is actually just the 24kwh pack with different parameters in the software, so it's stressed more and hence degrades faster.
that is a thought I had as well but hard to say since the charging profiles are not really detailed.

The fast charge profile generates a LOT more heat than the 24 kwh packs. I never hit the red in 6 years on 24 kwh packs but my 2016 has been in the red like 2-3 dozen times and spent nearly 24/7 at 8-10 bars for a 3 week period this past Summer.

Wondering if something on the L2 was changed? If you notice the math on the 30 kwh packs comes up to slightly less than 30 kwh and the charge level was going to 97.7 and my previous LEAF only went to 97.3 (at least as far as I can tell from several screenshots of LEAF spy taken)
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 7059.6 mi, 95.35% SOH
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