Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 731
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:39 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:I wondered if the 30kwh pack is actually just the 24kwh pack with different parameters in the software, so it's stressed more and hence degrades faster.
that is a thought I had as well but hard to say since the charging profiles are not really detailed.

The fast charge profile generates a LOT more heat than the 24 kwh packs. I never hit the red in 6 years on 24 kwh packs but my 2016 has been in the red like 2-3 dozen times and spent nearly 24/7 at 8-10 bars for a 3 week period this past Summer.


Wondering if something on the L2 was changed? If you notice the math on the 30 kwh packs comes up to slightly less than 30 kwh and the charge level was going to 97.7 and my previous LEAF only went to 97.3 (at least as far as I can tell from several screenshots of LEAF spy taken)
That would explain the difference between my QC experience with that of lorenfb then! We're both in SoCal, yet he would only sees a few degrees temp rise during QC, while I saw over 20 degrees! We had different sized battery packs (with their associated chemistry differences).

So does that make me the canary in the coal mine for post mid-2016 30kwh leafs that HAVEN'T suffered premature degradation (in a "warm" region)?
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

ironmanco
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:26 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2016
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:40 am

So, I have a 2016 with just over 34k on it. I've got about 50/50 charging profile of L2 and L3 because some kid shuttling I did needed to have a quick turnaround.

My current SOH is 83%. Full details below. I'm wondering if a sequence of L2 charging would help recover any of that? And secondly, I charge L2 at 21A....does that change the degradation compared to charging at 14 or 16A?


Mfg 12/15 Del 1/16 11 Nov 2017 34442 mi Ahr 66.44 SOH 83% Hx 76.86%
2016 Nissan Leaf SL Deep Blue Pearl
Mfg 12/15 Del 1/16 30 Oct 2018 50,183 mi Ahr 66.89 SOH 84% Hx 63.55% (w/Nissan sw patch)
Charging: evseupgrade L2 charging 30A circuit @ 24A shared garage heater circuit (ask me)

johnlocke
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:05 pm

DCFC in a 30 KWH car IS different than the older 24 KWH battery. You will see 106 amps up to 85-90% charge and a slow tapering thereafter. I've seen 40A at 95% and 15A at 98% on a EVGO charger. You are charging longer at a high rate and the current reduction at high charge is less than the older battery. It's no wonder the battery gets warmer.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

johnlocke
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:20 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:I wondered if the 30kwh pack is actually just the 24kwh pack with different parameters in the software, so it's stressed more and hence degrades faster.
that is a thought I had as well but hard to say since the charging profiles are not really detailed.

The fast charge profile generates a LOT more heat than the 24 kwh packs. I never hit the red in 6 years on 24 kwh packs but my 2016 has been in the red like 2-3 dozen times and spent nearly 24/7 at 8-10 bars for a 3 week period this past Summer.


Wondering if something on the L2 was changed? If you notice the math on the 30 kwh packs comes up to slightly less than 30 kwh and the charge level was going to 97.7 and my previous LEAF only went to 97.3 (at least as far as I can tell from several screenshots of LEAF spy taken)
That would explain the difference between my QC experience with that of lorenfb then! We're both in SoCal, yet he would only sees a few degrees temp rise during QC, while I saw over 20 degrees! We had different sized battery packs (with their associated chemistry differences).

So does that make me the canary in the coal mine for post mid-2016 30kwh leafs that HAVEN'T suffered premature degradation (in a "warm" region)?
It puts you in the running at least. But you are only a year old with one summer of hot weather. You are still down 5% overall. I'd like to hope the battery was improved somehow. 5% a year loss over 8 years will still put you at 60% though and might qualify for a new battery before the warranty ends.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

ironmanco
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:26 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2016
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:43 pm

Something tells me that there could be a market for an app that allows you to rewrite the state of health and status of the cells on a leaf battery array ;-)
2016 Nissan Leaf SL Deep Blue Pearl
Mfg 12/15 Del 1/16 30 Oct 2018 50,183 mi Ahr 66.89 SOH 84% Hx 63.55% (w/Nissan sw patch)
Charging: evseupgrade L2 charging 30A circuit @ 24A shared garage heater circuit (ask me)

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14696
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:56 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:I wondered if the 30kwh pack is actually just the 24kwh pack with different parameters in the software, so it's stressed more and hence degrades faster.
that is a thought I had as well but hard to say since the charging profiles are not really detailed.

The fast charge profile generates a LOT more heat than the 24 kwh packs. I never hit the red in 6 years on 24 kwh packs but my 2016 has been in the red like 2-3 dozen times and spent nearly 24/7 at 8-10 bars for a 3 week period this past Summer.


Wondering if something on the L2 was changed? If you notice the math on the 30 kwh packs comes up to slightly less than 30 kwh and the charge level was going to 97.7 and my previous LEAF only went to 97.3 (at least as far as I can tell from several screenshots of LEAF spy taken)
That would explain the difference between my QC experience with that of lorenfb then! We're both in SoCal, yet he would only sees a few degrees temp rise during QC, while I saw over 20 degrees! We had different sized battery packs (with their associated chemistry differences).

So does that make me the canary in the coal mine for post mid-2016 30kwh leafs that HAVEN'T suffered premature degradation (in a "warm" region)?
Its a huge difference. On a 300 mile trip I stopped to grab some lunch and plugged into a 125 amp AV charger. It finished the charge in 28 mins running at 38 KW when it shut off at 94% and I started the charge at 10 TBs....
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 7059.6 mi, 95.35% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4776
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:51 pm

FWIW this three bar loser car in central Florida has only been fast charged once we know of; the day delivery was taken at the dealer. We don't know if it might have been fast charged other times before delivery. Hard to see how it could have been too significant.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

ironmanco
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:26 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2016
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:14 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:FWIW this three bar loser car in central Florida has only been fast charged once we know of; the day delivery was taken at the dealer. We don't know if it might have been fast charged other times before delivery. Hard to see how it could have been too significant.
So, what's the going theory on the biggest killer of the 30kWh packs? Would the fact that I do 50/50 L2/L3 charging be the cause of an 83% SOH after 34k miles? I can tell you that I adhere to all the other battery upkeep guidelines - rarely charge to 100%, never store @ 100% and I'm in a pretty temperate climate - if not on the cooler side.

I'm actually headed down to the Nissan battery plant in TN at the beginning of December, so I'm hoping to get a chance to talk with some of the folks there.
2016 Nissan Leaf SL Deep Blue Pearl
Mfg 12/15 Del 1/16 30 Oct 2018 50,183 mi Ahr 66.89 SOH 84% Hx 63.55% (w/Nissan sw patch)
Charging: evseupgrade L2 charging 30A circuit @ 24A shared garage heater circuit (ask me)

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:15 pm

johnlocke wrote:DCFC in a 30 KWH car IS different than the older 24 KWH battery. You will see 106 amps up to 85-90% charge and a slow tapering thereafter. I've seen 40A at 95% and 15A at 98% on a EVGO charger. You are charging longer at a high rate and the current reduction at high charge is less than the older battery. It's no wonder the battery gets warmer.
There is not going to be much heat dissipation during a QC so the temperature increase will be related to heat released in the battery and its heat capacity. If it is true that the heat capacity of the 30 kWh battery is about 25% greater than the 24 kWh battery then one might expect the 30 kWh to be able to charge at a rate 25% faster than the smaller battery with similar temperature rise. That of course presumes that a lot of things otherwise remain constant, most importantly internal battery resistance.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:18 pm

ironmanco wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:FWIW this three bar loser car in central Florida has only been fast charged once we know of; the day delivery was taken at the dealer. We don't know if it might have been fast charged other times before delivery. Hard to see how it could have been too significant.
So, what's the going theory on the biggest killer of the 30kWh packs? Would the fact that I do 50/50 L2/L3 charging be the cause of an 83% SOH after 34k miles? I can tell you that I adhere to all the other battery upkeep guidelines - rarely charge to 100%, never store @ 100% and I'm in a pretty temperate climate - if not on the cooler side.

I'm actually headed down to the Nissan battery plant in TN at the beginning of December, so I'm hoping to get a chance to talk with some of the folks there.
Do you have any idea of battery temperatures after your QCs ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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