LeftieBiker
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:04 pm

ironmanco wrote:
jbuntz wrote:I don’t recall any 30 kWh EU cars with excessive degradation so far.
So - this statement seems to lean towards a bad batch of batteries for the US market?
It also supports the idea that, like the Canary packs, they do OK in cool climates. We'd need info from Spain, because most of Europe is relatively cool.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
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ironmanco
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:12 pm

LeftieBiker wrote: It also supports the idea that, like the Canary packs, they do OK in cool climates. We'd need info from Spain, because most of Europe is relatively cool.
But my point was that I'm a cooler climate - most of my charging happens when it's much cooler (<60F) and in some cases very cool. We may just not have enough data from the US 30 kWh batteries which reside in cooler areas of the US to determine if it's solely based on temp or bad production. Anyone care to provide some perspective on this?
2016 Nissan Leaf SL Deep Blue Pearl
Mfg 12/15 Del 1/16 30 Oct 2018 50,183 mi Ahr 66.89 SOH 84% Hx 63.55% (w/Nissan sw patch)
Charging: evseupgrade L2 charging 30A circuit @ 24A shared garage heater circuit (ask me)

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:36 pm

ironmanco wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote: It also supports the idea that, like the Canary packs, they do OK in cool climates. We'd need info from Spain, because most of Europe is relatively cool.
But my point was that I'm a cooler climate - most of my charging happens when it's much cooler (<60F) and in some cases very cool. We may just not have enough data from the US 30 kWh batteries which reside in cooler areas of the US to determine if it's solely based on temp or bad production. Anyone care to provide some perspective on this?
Some of the 2011-2012 packs degraded even in what we consider to be cool climates. Temps like your may be a prerequisite for longer life for packs with poor chemistry, but they don't guarantee it. It would help a lot to know hot warm your pack gets, as opposed to the outside temps.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

arnis
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Leaf Number: 015896
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:05 pm

2011-2012 Leaf packs degrade even here, in cold climates. Though for now usually 1-2 bar loss expected.

Another thing to keep in mind is that in EU, majority of Leafs are charged to 80% as default.
Though, AFAIK, charging to 100% has limited effect (somewhat like +10...+20% faster degradation) here. More if hot.
Leaf's that only QC (taxi) degrade like a third faster (per distance) - (QC does not degrade, temperature rise does).


6th temperature bar is the first bar to avoid in long term.
30kWh packs have slightly worse pack thermal design (cell pouches more crammed). And they can also be heated up
more easily as they QC way way faster.
Some Ukrainian Leaf importers (cars from US) have commented, that rear stack middle third modules are the likeliest to
lose capacity too fast. And reason is that those cool down the slowest, after high speed drive or QC session.


My car proves, that deep discharges matter little (hundred+ cycles below 3V per cell).
Though I can confirm, that discharging below VLBW will heat up battery CONSIDERABLY.

How to prolong pack life? Keep the average SOC low. This applies to almost all li ion chemistries. Jeff Dahn's words.
Accelerated Leaf's battery degradation does NOT happen due to cycling nor charging speed (me+taxies here prove).
It happens due to reactions in the battery happening at elevated (50+%) states of charge when pack is warm (6+bars).
This means in hot climates + 24/30kWh Leaf - do not charge above 50% if you don't need the range. Low limit is VLBW.
There is no data that shows accelerated degradation due to short-lasting low states of charge (I'm example that it is not true).
Keep in mind ideal storage SOC is 30%-50%. And that low limit is just to be sure it never drops dead. Which will NEVER
happen on a car, that is used daily/weekly.
Forget adjusting charging timing to sit in a "cold" soaked pack. Keep SOC below 50% for as long as possible. 6 bar's is not cold.
If you can't get it down to 5 bars, do not charge above 50%. Except if you discharge it within hours.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

SageBrush
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:52 pm

arnis wrote: Forget adjusting charging timing to sit in a "cold" soaked pack.
I'm not sure I understand this comment, but I agree with the rest of your post.

We let the car battery drop to 30-40% SOC from use before we charge it back up to 80%. Charging is set to start at 5am and performed outside in the summer. This is the coolest time of day and about an hour or two before use. I thought about asking my wife to recharge when the SoC hits the 20-30% level but that provokes range anxiety.

I think most of us can agree that heat is a first order cause of degradation for all electronics, batteries even more, and acutely so in the LEAF. It is almost painful to think of the LEAF owners in hot climates who thought they were taking care of their cars by parking in closed hot garages every day and charging the battery to 100% soon after parking.

As much as I am a harsh critic of Nissan, I do think that the 2013-2016 24 kwh packs can be reasonably expected to last 8-10 years if they are pampered and in mild climates. The jury is out on the 30 kWh packs, but it is not looking good.
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
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Leaf Number: 319862
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Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:51 pm

ironmanco wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote: It also supports the idea that, like the Canary packs, they do OK in cool climates. We'd need info from Spain, because most of Europe is relatively cool.
But my point was that I'm a cooler climate - most of my charging happens when it's much cooler (<60F) and in some cases very cool. We may just not have enough data from the US 30 kWh batteries which reside in cooler areas of the US to determine if it's solely based on temp or bad production. Anyone care to provide some perspective on this?
We have one in Northwest Oregon who lost over 10% in less than a year. He had 2015 build pack. His weather is not as marine controlled as mine but the differences aren't significant from mine... or are they? Do we really know what is significant?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 10,081 mi, 95.03% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:39 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
ironmanco wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote: It also supports the idea that, like the Canary packs, they do OK in cool climates. We'd need info from Spain, because most of Europe is relatively cool.
But my point was that I'm a cooler climate - most of my charging happens when it's much cooler (<60F) and in some cases very cool. We may just not have enough data from the US 30 kWh batteries which reside in cooler areas of the US to determine if it's solely based on temp or bad production. Anyone care to provide some perspective on this?
We have one in Northwest Oregon who lost over 10% in less than a year. He had 2015 build pack. His weather is not as marine controlled as mine but the differences aren't significant from mine... or are they? Do we really know what is significant?
Ask Arrhenius
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

arnis
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Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:23 am

SageBrush wrote:
arnis wrote: Forget adjusting charging timing to sit in a "cold" soaked pack.
I'm not sure I understand this comment, but I agree with the rest of your post.

We let the car battery drop to 30-40% SOC from use before we charge it back up to 80%. Charging is set to start at 5am and performed outside in the summer. This is the coolest time of day and about an hour or two before use. I thought about asking my wife to recharge when the SoC hits the 20-30% level but that provokes range anxiety.

I recommended not to think about how to keep battery as cold as possible before trip.
It's fine to drive a Leaf that was just charging and has battery temp above ambient.


You charge up to 80% but do you discharge it within few hours down to 50%? If not, consider not charging up to 80%.
Start charging at 7am so that SOC is below 80% when trip starts. So it is near 50% mark soon after.

It appears that heat degradation is many times slower at 30% SOC compared to 80%.
Though it is hard to keep a car so low. It's a vehicle that should be used daily. There is no range at 30% SOC :lol:
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14820
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:37 am

arnis wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
arnis wrote: Forget adjusting charging timing to sit in a "cold" soaked pack.
I'm not sure I understand this comment, but I agree with the rest of your post.

We let the car battery drop to 30-40% SOC from use before we charge it back up to 80%. Charging is set to start at 5am and performed outside in the summer. This is the coolest time of day and about an hour or two before use. I thought about asking my wife to recharge when the SoC hits the 20-30% level but that provokes range anxiety.

I recommended not to think about how to keep battery as cold as possible before trip.
It's fine to drive a Leaf that was just charging and has battery temp above ambient.


You charge up to 80% but do you discharge it within few hours down to 50%? If not, consider not charging up to 80%.
Start charging at 7am so that SOC is below 80% when trip starts. So it is near 50% mark soon after.

It appears that heat degradation is many times slower at 30% SOC compared to 80%.
Though it is hard to keep a car so low. It's a vehicle that should be used daily. There is no range at 30% SOC :lol:
the key takeaway here should be limiting the TIME at high SOC and heat. It is ok to heat up pack and its ok to charge to high SOC. Simply don't let it stew that way. These little tiny "I charged to full on level 2 in the middle of the day at work and left right away" might sound good to you but on level 2 that means as much as 2 hours at a high SOC. This is what is hurting us. Its a tiny thing for sure but 2, 3 hours every day becomes a big thing.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 10,081 mi, 95.03% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
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Location: NM

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:11 am

arnis wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
arnis wrote: Forget adjusting charging timing to sit in a "cold" soaked pack.
I'm not sure I understand this comment, but I agree with the rest of your post.

We let the car battery drop to 30-40% SOC from use before we charge it back up to 80%. Charging is set to start at 5am and performed outside in the summer. This is the coolest time of day and about an hour or two before use. I thought about asking my wife to recharge when the SoC hits the 20-30% level but that provokes range anxiety.
You charge up to 80% but do you discharge it within few hours down to 50%? If not, consider not charging up to 80%.
Start charging at 7am so that SOC is below 80% when trip starts. So it is near 50% mark soon after.
The charge is set to finish at 6am, and the car is used between 6am and 9am. The end of charging battery temperature is 6 bars in the summer and 3-4 bars in the winter. Each trip knocks about 10% off the SoC

I call that babying the battery, but it could always be a bit better.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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